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Old 06-04-2016, 05:09 PM   #361
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The Mustachianism cult is very positive in many ways but it seems to promote this idea that you are a big loser if you work an actual "real" job.

So pilots and cops and teachers and lawyers and doctors, etc. are wasting their life away by working more than 10.9 years in their careers.

Every time I go to the MMM website I quickly remind myself that this guy now makes big money off his website selling this idea of Mustachian living.
You know you just nailed it why I was kind of starting to dislike MMM blog and his 'cult vibe' though I never really followed it.
It feels as if if you don't follow his path of getting a well paid job, saving like crazy for 10 years, and quitting to start another career, then you're dumb as you work for another man (or company). He's an entrepreneur, but not everybody is. I hope his 'cult' followers have exactly his spirit and don't feel pressure reading his writings and feel that they MUST quit their jobs just because they feel dissatisfied once a month or so. But yes, I agree with MMM's message about not buying unnecessary stuff if they bring short-lived happiness. BTW, one of his recent articles was about Tesla, but I couldn't interpret if he was for having that 'toy' or not.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:44 PM   #362
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I will say that the tone of the forum has changed a bit since the 6 years I've been here. A little more scolding, and less "live and let live."
Yup. A major reason I drop by less and less.
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Old 06-05-2016, 05:02 AM   #363
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I will say that the tone of the forum has changed a bit since the 6 years I've been here. A little more scolding, and less "live and let live."
A big +1 here too.

As I said before, it's not the disagreements and alternate opinions I mind at all - in fact, I enjoy them. However, most of the time here, there is spirited and intelligent discussion and criticism without the insults and negative characterizations. Not much we can do about it I suppose, but I do like the wording in the meme that Sarah posted earlier,

"Blowing out someone else's candle doesn't make yours shine any brighter"

There is a way to intelligently and respectfully critique others. I sure hope we can all get back to doing just that.
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Old 06-06-2016, 06:02 PM   #364
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Yeah, this is way more negative than the tone usually is on the forum. I've been reading for years (I just don't post much). Hell, the original retire early forum back on the Motely Fool website in the 90s was more positive than this thread too. :P
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:35 PM   #365
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Maybe as we are collectively aging, we are getting grumpy.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:40 PM   #366
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:51 PM   #367
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Perhaps not just getting grumpy. Experience teaches much.

Sometimes the truth hurts.
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Old 06-06-2016, 08:09 PM   #368
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Perhaps not just getting grumpy. Experience teaches much.

Sometimes the truth hurts.
Any question asked or issue raised that does not fit the very narrow groupthink gets carpet bombed generally starting within the first dozen posts. That sound like experience? The "truth?" Or just walking rectum tribal behavior?
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Old 06-06-2016, 08:54 PM   #369
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Any question asked or issue raised that does not fit the very narrow groupthink gets carpet bombed generally starting within the first dozen posts. That sound like experience? The "truth?" Or just walking rectum tribal behavior?

I thought I was the only one who noticed that. That's why I didn't say anything
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:08 PM   #370
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Perhaps not just getting grumpy. Experience teaches much.

Sometimes the truth hurts.
+1. The reason most large projects, those requiring many man years of project scheduling, failed at my last job was due to irrational optimism.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:14 PM   #371
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Any question asked or issue raised that does not fit the very narrow groupthink gets carpet bombed generally starting within the first dozen posts. That sound like experience? The "truth?" Or just walking rectum tribal behavior?
lol, my entire life I've been the "odd duck". I'm the girl who had "purple" hair waaay before it was cool, I was the Harlem gal that LOVED crosby, stills and nash as opposed to the temptations so in general I live in a bomb proof virtual vest.

but I also accept the sandbox I'm playing in. i understand that in this playground spending money on luxury items is wasteful but dropping gabillions on travel is acceptable.

but i enjoy chatting and I know that there are many ways to define ER
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:24 PM   #372
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But not if you pay 3X for first class. That's wasteful.

And wasteful is a judgement.

That's the bottom line eh? Judgement.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:53 PM   #373
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Any question asked or issue raised that does not fit the very narrow groupthink gets carpet bombed generally starting within the first dozen posts. That sound like experience? The "truth?" Or just walking rectum tribal behavior?

A few good men ....

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Old 06-06-2016, 10:01 PM   #374
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It didn't end well for him either.
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Old 06-07-2016, 01:15 AM   #375
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More than ever it appears discussion is attempted to be brought down by either calling the person that disagrees a “hater” or else just plain mean as the the image employed here suggests. There was an article on Zero Hedge discussing this very topic and how the Bernie Madoff’s and Elizabeth Holmes of the world count on using this very tactic to prevent any light being shed on their methods. Without a willingness to meaningfully discuss specifics and methods used and results obtained, the internet filler of platitudes for having the foresight to ask for raises and bonuses as a means to early retirement gets posted as sound financial advice.

There are financial questions I have with the couple and the “image” they portray in the article and in their blog in regards to the numbers they portray.

1) In their discussion of taxes paid they do not list social security or medicare taxes, did they pay that in their saving years? The balances for Mint are presented in a manner as if they were audited statements from PWC and any questions of how this was done is an improper inquiry by lessors that the savers do not have time to detail.

2) They list as paying no income taxes as their goal in retirement and state how they are going to turn 80K in ROTH IRA money into tax free withdrawals by 20K per year, though they can only use “original” contributions. Their own supplied savings records suggest that 50-60% of all their savings is from investing gains which would only leave 35-40K to withdraw from this or less than 2 years, so there seems a disconnect there. Or perhaps they just got lucky and the whole 80K is their contributions as this was the only account that didn’t soar in the past 3 years and so they will have enough for the next 4 years (how great is that the numbers just work out for the 4 years they needed) when the rollovers begin in the fifth year.

3) They show no dividend income despite having 500K in aftertax money. How are they avoiding that? Dividend income in VTI would be 10K per year and would either undercut the ROTH IRA conversion or make them pay taxes. I didn’t read a whole lot of their articles so perhaps they discussed this elsewhere.

4) They do not show any blog income, Airbnb income or rental income in their projections for managing their finances to the dollar in order to obtain maximum health care paid by the government when they hold income under 31.4K which they declare as the holy grail of retirement health care. Figuring 10K annually for their blog, which is likely light, and rentals from their house this makes the tax assumptions needed a nice article to post and I assume just like their mentor MMM the blog is actually just a “persona” to allow them to show how it “could” be done not actually done. I assume myself that the 400K annually that MMM makes does effect his health care costs and as they are obviously just running with a redo of MMM the same is happening here. Really it doesn’t matter at all other than to invalidate the very methods they claim to be able to use to finance their retirement. Saying blog income and rentals help pay the extra fees for health care is not as clickable as zero taxes and free health care.

5) Finance magazines need articles and clever titles to get eyeballs and bloggers are happy to supply a summary of their blog to drive the traffic they need and bloggers will defend other bloggers in order to get the cross pollination necessary to continue this internet sport of financial clicks. This is how the celebrity game everywhere is played not only on blogging but from politics to sports as well as financial bloggers. Pre internet these people were referred to as “free-lance writers” and could make a decent living writing out of their homes. See Jack Nicholson in “As Good as It Gets” an apt movie title for the lifestyle desired and provided for these and many other young couples.

I do not care at all what these bloggers do, they are free to do whatever they want, I don’t read blogs of this type because the articles are so soft and devoid of any actual financial help or truthful presentation I cannot rely on anything therefore of what is posted in the blog.

The entire point of the original posting of this article appears to be to comment on the comments in the article. I guess just coming down to Haters versus Baiters, I must admit I did not read a single one, do people really go through comments on blogs? People posting inaccurate or obnoxious comments in reference to a blog has absolutely no value in determining if the blog itself is of any value or not. I did not read the blog at first because of the description: "The article is decent... nothing amazing... the COMMENTS are gold” . But when I saw this had gotten to 17 pages thought I would look at the blog and it is what I thought an MMM clone.
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Old 06-07-2016, 04:25 AM   #376
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Hey guys/gals, I just dropped in and began reading this thread. I also read many financial blogs (ERE, MMM, etc.) and am always looking for the "nugget" or two to get me thinking. One thing that really amazes me are the number of nit pickers that comment on the sites. "Not really retired", "the blog is still a job", "numbers don't work". I guess I equate financial freedom with the freedom part more important than the financial part. 10 years ago, I would have said I wanted to work until I dropped because of good health and a booming business I had created. But then the business blew up (recession of '08), and the health dropped off a little. Now I part time it, but I decide whether to work or not. My investments give me that freedom. I consider myself retired, but many would argue that point.
As for me, I really don't care that Jacob at ERE has gone back into the workforce or that MMM now makes blogging cash. They both have proved their points (with early retirement) and are now following their new dreams. And both STILL give me ideas when I drop in.
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Old 06-07-2016, 06:09 AM   #377
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Enginerds and Aspies tend to like to nitpick. So do financial types and other related numbers people. Then there are the "INxx" personality types added in who tend to analyze.

We just don't have a lot of the free spirit aspirationals here. Most in here have succeeded in FIRE- So they have been there and done (or are doing) that and have found flaws in the plan and point those out - it's experience and wisdom speaking, not haters or what ever the Internet labels anyone who disagrees with what's being said.

Yes. We may be honest. We may even be (gasp) cruel. But this forum is about the only place where you can get real honest opinions, not some bullshit feel good "everyone gets a medal" nonsense accolades for not achieving anything remotely spectacular that has otherwise become far too prevalent in today's "everyone's a winner" world- both real and virtual. There are plenty of places for that elsewhere

There are members here including me who value the debate. The constructive criticism and the discussion of both sides of the coin that is, infact , one of the points of value in a forum board like this.

Hardly group think, I believe we had a good balance of for and against.

Never did this thread become a personal attack or unprofessional.

Respectfully, Not to be exclusionary, I would say if a reader doesn't like the heat then this is probably not the right kitchen to enter - some folks need to grow thicker skin.
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:22 AM   #378
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Yeah, this is way more negative than the tone usually is on the forum. I've been reading for years (I just don't post much). Hell, the original retire early forum back on the Motely Fool website in the 90s was more positive than this thread too. :P
I was extremely surprised at the negative comments that started in the FIRST 25 POSTS! I should have known better when there were 400+ posts in a matter of days...that is NEVER a good sign.

I haven't been around here too long, but one thing I have always liked about it is how civil it is in comparison with just about every other forum out there...but lately it's been about as bad as all the others...and that makes me sad.

I am not sure why there are so many people that are SO judgmental about others lately. As my wife would say, "If you aren't cooking for me, paying my bills or (can't say the third thing here, so use your imagination) then what does it matter to you?"
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:46 AM   #379
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I was extremely surprised at the negative comments that started in the FIRST 25 POSTS! I should have known better when there were 400+ posts in a matter of days...that is NEVER a good sign.

I haven't been around here too long, but one thing I have always liked about it is how civil it is in comparison with just about every other forum out there...but lately it's been about as bad as all the others...and that makes me sad.

I am not sure why there are so many people that are SO judgmental about others lately. As my wife would say, "If you aren't cooking for me, paying my bills or (can't say the third thing here, so use your imagination) then what does it matter to you
?"
because isn't the purpose of a forum is to have DIFFERENT opinions?? so basically you're saying that if we don't agree with these folks where judgmental?

I love how people say others are being "judgmental' in one breathe while doing the exact same thing.

So I see basically that as others have pointed out, we don't really want different views, we want everyone to hold our views (lol, sort of like our current political situation) and if you don't your "negative".


ok like I said I'm playing in this universe I can tow the company line also.

Ohhh, how wonderful, this couple has figured out the true meaning of life, they are retired at 30"
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:31 AM   #380
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Thanks folks, we believe that this thread has now run its course.
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