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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 11:17 AM   #21
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
So you found one Vanguard fund that the American funds dont add up to out of the probably hundreds of vanguard funds? Now that sounds like a fair comparison! * extreme sarcasm * That was a joke, right?
You made the assertion. It's your burden of proof.

You claimed that "several" American funds would make a "mockery" of Vanguard funds. Which are they and what time period?
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 12:24 PM   #22
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1
Oh wow! It's really amazing to me that there are people who can't manage their money unless doing such basic things like this. Very child like.
I actually had a system like this when I was in high school and college working pt and summer jobs. If only I had thought to market it to the masses! Oh, the things that could have been!
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 03:43 PM   #23
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
You made the assertion. It's your burden of proof.

You claimed that "several" American funds would make a "mockery" of Vanguard funds. Which are they and what time period?
I own one front loaded American Fund and have been happy with it, so I
too am interested in the answer (not interested enough to do any of the
research myself, however).

JG
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 04:08 PM   #24
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

A guy I knew went through his financial counselor program. It cost him nearly $5000 total to go through "Dave's Training". I reviewed the books and materials he got--mostly salesmanship and marketing stuff. It seems that most of the folks he gets in the program are insurance people that also sell some mutual funds.

You gotta remember: this is a very simple, not very sophisticated market segment, not like you folks. I listen to his podcasts sometimes, but mostly to reinforce my LBYM mentality. There are some unbelievably ignorant people (think payday loan users) that he really does help. I don't think he's a bad panacea for the masses and I'm not really offended by the religious stuff too much.

But I figure, everyone's got to start somewhere, and if Dave Ramsey is the start to someone's financial education, then maybe more of them will wind up where most of you are, knowledge-wise.

Sarah
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 04:21 PM   #25
 
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
I own one front loaded American Fund and have been happy with it, so I
too am interested in the answer (not interested enough to do any of the
research myself, however).

JG
John,

Since you don't invest in the market, what is your fund invested in? - Pork Bellies?
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 04:29 PM   #26
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
John,

Since you don't invest in the market, what is your fund invested in? - Pork Bellies?
I never said I didn't invest in "the market". I just own no publically traded
"equities" (stock). That particular fund is their High Yield Corp. Bonds.

JG
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 04:45 PM   #27
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclesters
But I figure, everyone's got to start somewhere, and if Dave Ramsey is the start to someone's financial education, then maybe more of them will wind up where most of you are, knowledge-wise.
That's true, for some folks just getting out of debt is a biggie.
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 04:48 PM   #28
 
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiny
That's true, for some folks just getting out of debt is a biggie.
Yup! - That's where I had to start. The main problem that I have with Dave Ramsey, is you have to join a religion to get out of debt and have financial security.
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 04:49 PM   #29
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
I never said I didn't invest in "the market". I just own no publically traded
"equities" (stock). That particular fund is their High Yield Corp. Bonds.

JG
Well, if its the High Income Trust, thats a pretty good fund you own.

AF has some really good funds. They also offer load free versions of all their funds for fee based advisors too.

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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 04:59 PM   #30
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Well, if its the High Income Trust, thats a pretty good fund you own.

AF has some really good funds. They also offer load free versions of all their funds for fee based advisors too.

Yeah, I don't do nearly the research that a lot of folks do, but that
fund has been ranked near the top of that genre since I bought it.
No prescience. Mostly just luck.

JG
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 05:09 PM   #31
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Yup! - That's where I had to start. The main problem that I have with Dave Ramsey, is you have to join a religion to get out of debt and have financial security.
Yeah, I've noticed that. One of his columns got me so worked up I was
going to write and set him straight. My computer was down and after
I was back in business I said "The hell with it!" I can't decide if he is
overly narrow-minded because of events in his past, or just thinks
"this system is makin' me rich so I better stick with it."

Here is the deal. "Debt" per se is neither good nor evil. In fact,
in many many venues you can make a fortune by just using OPM
and borrowing to the max. Now, you need some brainpower to do this,
but that's how most fortunes are made IMHO (Donald Trump comes to mind).
So, when Dave gets off on one of his "Debt is just terrible, etc" rants.......................well, it's simply not true. Credit (debt) is largely what
drives capitalism/free enterprise. If he has pointed this out, I must have missed that column.

JG
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 05:20 PM   #32
 
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
Yeah, I've noticed that. One of his columns got me so worked up I was
going to write and set him straight. My computer was down and after
I was back in business I said "The hell with it!" I can't decide if he is
overly narrow-minded because of events in his past, or just thinks
"this system is makin' me rich so I better stick with it."

Here is the deal. "Debt" per se is neither good nor evil. In fact,
in many many venues you can make a fortune by just using OPM
and borrowing to the max. Now, you need some brainpower to do this,
but that's how most fortunes are made IMHO (Donald Trump comes to mind).
So, when Dave gets off on one of his "Debt is just terrible, etc" rants.......................well, it's simply not true. Credit (debt) is largely what
drives capitalism/free enterprise. If he has pointed this out, I must have missed that column.

JG
I was not talking about Debt! (Which he is also against) - But really Religion - He pushes the Christian dogma so much on his show, that it is almost embarrassing!
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 05:26 PM   #33
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
I was not talking about Debt! (Which he is also against) - But really Religion - He pushes the Christian dogma so much on his show, that it is almost embarrassing!
Yes, but his "debt hysteria" bothers me even more. This may be because
I was a big time debtor back in my working days (not now), or maybe
because my SIL is a hard core Christian conservative; thus I am used to
the "Christian dogma" and so it doesn't bother me much.

JG
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 05:42 PM   #34
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Today I heard him talking about taking out 8% withdrawal based upon a 12% return (past history) in growth & income and balanced mutual funds.
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 05:49 PM   #35
 
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by atla
Today I heard him talking about taking out 8% withdrawal based upon a 12% return (past history) in growth & income and balanced mutual funds.
He's getting conservative. He used to talk about a 12% withdrawal with a 12% return. His audience was not sophisticated enough to be bothered by inflation.
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 06:06 PM   #36
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Most of his audience is so deeply in debt that they are trying to avoid bankruptcy or just survive.
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 07:05 PM   #37
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
You made the assertion. It's your burden of proof.

You claimed that "several" American funds would make a "mockery" of Vanguard funds. Which are they and what time period?
A couple of years ago i looked into American funds because my brother-in-law owns them exclusively... out of curiosity. All i recall from my research was how much better many of them were compared to my American Century and Janus funds. Vanguard is notoriously average since it is common knowledge that the reason most buy Vanguard is to index (aka as buying the average).

I'm too lazy to do that again on account of this thread. Just trust me; they have several great ones, load even included in that.

I dont mean to start yet another index vs active management debate, but I will say I prefer a real person picking my stocks as opposed to a computer. Call it a personal preference.
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 07:11 PM   #38
 
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
I dont mean to start yet another index vs active management debate, but I will say I prefer a real person picking my stocks as opposed to a computer. Call it a personal preference.
Even though about 96% of them cannot beat the index!
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 07:14 PM   #39
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Even though about 96% of them cannot beat the index!
Check your research. Its more like 70%. A figure that would concern me if i were forced to randomly pick my actively managed fund.

10 minutes of reserach for a given fund earns you an extra 1-2% for years. I think its worth the tradeoff. There are proven superstar fund managers out there. You just have to make a little bit of effort to find them.
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...
Old 10-23-2006, 07:16 PM   #40
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Re: Dave Ramsey said what??...

For all of you American Funds fans -

Sure, nice historical record on several funds. I listened to their CIO speak at a conference and I do respect their style. However, Capital Research has grown to be one of largest asset mgt firms in the country over that time span. A lot easier to outperform with a smaller asset base. Given that it promotes actively managed funds, I wouldn't expect that outperformance to continue due to the severity of asset bloat.

So IMHO:
Asset bloat (esp on those popular funds) + higher expenses than index funds/VG ETFs = underperformance, thus making the American funds not worth the investment. But I could be wrong.

Full disclosure:
After reading Dog's (still up for a wager this weekend?? ) post, I now hope Dave & his envelopes & Ray and his buckets go to hell.
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