Detroit.........

[Gatordoc50]

Most businesses look for strong local demand before investing. Detroit doesn't have that, or really any other competitive advantage right now for business or skilled labor, and that would need to be part of a turnaround if we expect Detroit to recover.

Send the remaining folks suitcases and u-hauls then because they ain't gonna dig out of this hole without business investment. ( Sam Kinison reference).

 

[TuborgP]

Detroit is on the verge of structural failure if it isn't there already.

 

[jollystomper]

I'm curious how some of those old churches are maintained, especially since the population has dwindled so much and aren't really in a position to give. Do people commute in?

From this website, many have been abandoned (along with other buildings): Detroiturbex.com - Locations

 

[travelover]

Send the remaining folks suitcases and u-hauls then because they ain't gonna dig out of this hole without business investment. ( Sam Kinison reference).

Some insightful statistics about the "remaining folks"

47% of adults are functionally illiterate
High school dropout rate is 38%
71% of births are to unwed mothers
22% of households have no car
Actual jobless rate is about 50%
A major election to revise the city charter had a 10% participation rate
Per capital income is approximately $15,000
47% of homeowners don't pay their property taxes

 

[Gatordoc50]

Some insightful statistics about the "remaining folks"

47% of adults are functionally illiterate
High school dropout rate is 38%
71% of births are to unwed mothers
22% of households have no car
Actual jobless rate is about 50%
A major election to revise the city charter had a 10% participation rate
Per capital income is approximately $15,000
47% of homeowners don't pay their property taxes

Sounds like SW Florida in 1950.

 

[scrabbler1]

I hope Detroit's physical infrastructure doesn't undergo the problems New York City's did in the late 1970s and into the 1980s following its near-default in 1974-75. People who travel in NYC are still feeling the effects created by years and years of deferred maintenance (i.e. as simple as repainting to keep rust from forming) on some highways and its subways. For example, Manhattan once had an elevated, limited-access highway running down the entire west side. But thanks to bad maintenance, part of the roadway collapsed and nearly all of it had to be torn down, leaving a street-level road with traffic lights causing lots of congestion. In 1988 the Williamsburg Bridge had to be shut down for 2 weeks after corrosion was found in a floor beam. For 20 years starting in the mid-1980s, some subway tracks on the Manhattan Bridge have been closed so the bridge's structure could be strengthened, inconveniencing many riders (including me a few times).

I realize Detroit doesn't have the infrastructure that New York City does, but deferring needed maintenance for many years will cause problems later on no matter where it is.

 

[TuborgP]

I hope Detroit's physical infrastructure doesn't undergo the problems New York City's did in the late 1970s and into the 1980s following its near-default in 1974-75. People who travel in NYC are still feeling the effects created by years and years of deferred maintenance (i.e. as simple as repainting to keep rust from forming) on some highways and its subways. For example, Manhattan once had an elevated, limited-access highway running down the entire west side. But thanks to bad maintenance, part of the roadway collapsed and nearly all of it had to be torn down, leaving a street-level road with traffic lights causing lots of congestion. In 1988 the Williamsburg Bridge had to be shut down for 2 weeks after corrosion was found in a floor beam. For 20 years starting in the mid-1980s, some subway tracks on the Manhattan Bridge have been closed so the bridge's structure could be strengthened, inconveniencing many riders (including me a few times).

I realize Detroit doesn't have the infrastructure that New York City does, but deferring needed maintenance for many years will cause problems later on no matter where it is.

I think Detroit is beyond that point.

 

[bUU]

I worked in Detroit in the 1990s, and some portions of the infrastructure were iffy back then as far as I was concerned, especially around the old GM HQ.

 

[travelover]

I think Detroit is beyond that point.

Yes, a Google Earth flyover is instructional, particularly of the neighborhoods

 

[Gatordoc50]

From a business point of view, old infrastructure is way better than no infrastructure. I'm assuming that Detroit's geographical location is still an asset for manufacturing and transporting goods. It seems ridiculous to fold up an entire city because it was horribly mismanaged by incompetence.

 

[hausfrau]

From this website, many have been abandoned (along with other buildings): Detroiturbex.com - Locations

Thanks for the link. It's very sad. So many pretty buildings!

 

[ESRwannabe]

The only way Detroit can pay off it's debts is if they were to annex/join with the suburbs that surround it. That would be a difficult thing to do as I doubt the suburbs would go along with it.

I think they are screwed and will have to declare bankruptcy. Although it is possible the state/federal gov steps in to take on the debts. I don't think that is very likely.

 

[haha]

If we act like ostriches and try to keep alive relics of another time like Detroit, we are being very stupid, and ultimately will lose out to younger, less encumbered nations. This may be inevitable anyway, but unenlightened political attitudes can make it much more certain.

Ha

 

[travelover]

The only way Detroit can pay off it's debts is if they were to annex/join with the suburbs that surround it. That would be a difficult thing to do as I doubt the suburbs would go along with it.

The suburbs were created by people exiting Detroit - that is how the population went from about 2 million down to 700,000. There is no annexation or joining that is going to happen.

I think they are screwed and will have to declare bankruptcy. Although it is possible the state/federal gov steps in to take on the debts. I don't think that is very likely.

Detroit has already filed for Chapter 9 bankruptcy.

 

[utrecht]

Some insightful statistics about the "remaining folks"

47% of adults are functionally illiterate
High school dropout rate is 38%
71% of births are to unwed mothers
22% of households have no car
Actual jobless rate is about 50%
A major election to revise the city charter had a 10% participation rate
Per capital income is approximately $15,000
47% of homeowners don't pay their property taxes

Detroit owns $2 billion in art within the Detroit Institute of Arts that is owned by the City and apparently they cant be forced to and don't plan to sell it. Not sure if that's true or not, but based on the stats listed above, do you really think this is the demographic that takes full advantage of stuffy art museums? The City is falling down around them.. They don't need art. Once again, more mismanagement by politicians who are out of touch with reality.

 

[bUU]

If we act like ostriches and try to keep alive relics of another time like Detroit, we are being very stupid, and ultimately will lose out to younger, less encumbered nations. This may be inevitable anyway, but unenlightened political attitudes can make it much more certain.

But what, exactly, is the implication of what you're saying? Surely it is clear you're talking about no bail-out or any such thing, but where should the failure point be, in your scenario? The bondholders, or the pensioners? Or are you talking about disincorporation. (I've got a bunch of questions and thoughts about what would happen in that scenario, but I don't think anyone seriously thinks that's where this is going - right?)

 

[travelover]

Detroit owns $2 billion in art within the Detroit Institute of Arts that is owned by the City and apparently they cant be forced to and don't plan to sell it. Not sure if that's true or not, but based on the stats listed above, do you really think this is the demographic that takes full advantage of stuffy art museums? The City is falling down around them.. They don't need art. Once again, more mismanagement by politicians who are out of touch with reality.

The Detroit Institute of Arts serves the entire Detroit metropolitan area. On any given day, I'm sure that the majority of visitors are from the suburbs. I'm also pretty confident that most of the docents and benefactors also live in the suburbs. The governance of the museum is by a separate entity from the city of Detroit and the museum is supported by a millage on residents from the three surrounding counties. Many of the pieces were donated with a stipulation that the art could never be sold or ownership reverts back to the entity donating the artwork.

After bankruptcy, the city will continue on and the hope is to draw younger and more middle and upper class residents. Would Detroit and the entire region be in a better position to do that with a vacant art museum? To me, that is kind of like burning your seed corn.

 

[bUU]

Detroit owns $2 billion in art within the Detroit Institute of Arts that is owned by the City and apparently they cant be forced to and don't plan to sell it. Not sure if that's true or not, but based on the stats listed above, do you really think this is the demographic that takes full advantage of stuffy art museums? The City is falling down around them.. They don't need art. Once again, more mismanagement by politicians who are out of touch with reality.

I heard a news story on the art. My understanding is that the most valuable art pieces were conditionally bequeathed, some with provisions that ownership of the art automatically reverts to the trust or descendants of the donor if the conditions are breached. There are standards of law, such as cy pres, that protect the donor's intent. I could see cy pres used to modify a condition that said a specific donation had to be on display in a certain building to allow it to be displayed in another nearby building, but not to allow a donation to be sold to raise cash.

 

[samclem]

It's a real shame. At one time the city had everything going for it: Thriving businesses, good infrastructure and location, cultural/arts attractions, etc. I hope things can be turned around (some places have done it--Pittsburgh, etc). At the very least, Detroit's example can be beneficial for many other city governments and the residents of these towns, especially those in the Midwest. I listened to local talk radio out of Cincinnati this morning (a city with it's own fiscal problems), and Detroit's situation and the lessons for Cincy were the only things people wanted to discuss.

The airport in Detroit is great--clean, modern, efficient. Now I wonder if the money spent there was another nail in the city's coffin.

Travelover, best wishes to you and the residents of Motown.

 

[bUU]

The airport in Detroit is great--clean, modern, efficient. Now I wonder if the money spent there was another nail in the city's coffin.

I'd believe more readily that it was one of the better investments, helping mitigate (slow) Detroit's fall, if it has any significant impact.

 

[GrayHare]

A tax-free zone (for 3? 5? X? years) within the city would encourage businesses to move back in, reboot jobs and rebuild a tax base.

 

[ChrisC]

I found this article by Keith Richburg in today's Washington Post a very perceptive take on some of the major factors that lead Detroit to this financial quagmire. I hope Detroit rebounds and finds its way.
Detroit’s demise was decades in the making - The Washington Post

 

[utrecht]

The Detroit Institute of Arts serves the entire Detroit metropolitan area. On any given day, I'm sure that the majority of visitors are from the suburbs. I'm also pretty confident that most of the docents and benefactors also live in the suburbs. The governance of the museum is by a separate entity from the city of Detroit and the museum is supported by a millage on residents from the three surrounding counties. Many of the pieces were donated with a stipulation that the art could never be sold or ownership reverts back to the entity donating the artwork.

After bankruptcy, the city will continue on and the hope is to draw younger and more middle and upper class residents. Would Detroit and the entire region be in a better position to do that with a vacant art museum? To me, that is kind of like burning your seed corn.

I would draw a lot more of my friends to my house if I had a theater room, a giant swimming pool, and a basketball court but I cant afford those things. If you declared bankruptcy, would you expect to keep your Bentley (if you had one) under the theory that you couldn't get a job without a car? The City of Detroit cant afford an over the top art gallery. How about they start with a quality police force, streets without giant holes in them and street lights that work. They cant buy new fire trucks (even if they could afford them) because the avg fire station is 80 years old and new fire trucks wont fit in them. Younger and more middle and upper class people aren't coming back to Detroit until basic city services are restored. Art museums can come when they can afford them.

 

[haha]

There is absolutely no way that Detroit can be resuscitated. It my be un-American to say, but Detroit is toast. The only strong manufacturing, in Detroit and the area, is artificially propped up by political favoritism and a strong union along with political allies managing to somehow keep the auto plants from leaking into right to work southern states.

Boeing here in Seattle has historically been a fortress of strong unions and highly paid jobs, many requiring only moderate skill levels. Whoops! No matter that the Democratic governor turned handsprings to keep airplane manufacturing in Puget Sound, much of it has gone to South Carolina and it looks like South Carolina will be the driver of future expansion. Washington unionized workers have always been highly skilled for the jobs that demand high skills, but they have also been hard to get along with whenever they have had the drop on management. Even all the problems with the 787 won't slow down a movement as committed as a river running toward the sea. If the SE US is skilled enough for Mercedes and BMW, it is certainly skilled enough for US automakers.

When push comes to shove, the weak players get shoved, and this will happen as world economic conditions tighten.

The article about rampant crime- where would the tax money come from to pay for police presence capable of making a dent in this? Years ago (70s) NYC was skirting bankruptcy, and it has made a spectacular recovery. But Detroit is no NYC.

Ha

 

[travelover]

........ Younger and more middle and upper class people aren't coming back to Detroit until basic city services are restored.

I agree

Art museums can come when they can afford them.

I disagree, but this will be decided by the courts and it is not an either or proposition.