Detroit.........

[harley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bUU or sink it into Lake St. Clair.

Excellent suggestion. Move the people out (subsidized, of course), build a big wall around it, then flood it and use it as a cooling system for a number of new nuclear power plants. It's similar to what was done by building Lake Anna in VA (without the major city aspect). You end up with a needed power producing facility, a nice recreational area for boating and fishing (avoid the "warm" end of the lake), and solve the problem of what to do with a city nobody wants to live in anymore.

[Spanky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by harley Excellent suggestion. Move the people out (subsidized, of course), build a big wall around it, then flood it and use it as a cooling system for a number of new nuclear power plants. It's similar to what was done by building Lake Anna in VA (without the major city aspect). You end up with a needed power producing facility, a nice recreational area for boating and fishing (avoid the "warm" end of the lake), and solve the problem of what to do with a city nobody wants to live in anymore.

How much will this cost?

[travelover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by harley Excellent suggestion. Move the people out (subsidized, of course), build a big wall around it, then flood it and use it as a cooling system for a number of new nuclear power plants. It's similar to what was done by building Lake Anna in VA (without the major city aspect). You end up with a needed power producing facility, a nice recreational area for boating and fishing (avoid the "warm" end of the lake), and solve the problem of what to do with a city nobody wants to live in anymore.

You might want to consult a map.

[harley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelover You might want to consult a map.

I thought about that, but I'm more of an idea guy. I leave the piddling little details to the experts.

[travelover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by harley I thought about that, but I'm more of an idea guy. I leave the piddling little details to the experts.

Good man, we need a guy like you in congress.

[ChrisC]

Detroit is not NYC, not Pittsburgh, and clearly not rural Spotsylvania/Louisa County Virginia (where Lake Anna is located and within a stone's throw where I lived for many years). Dissolution of the city or annexation of counties don't seem politically viable solutions for Detroit let alone financially prudent for all interested parties. It seems that burdensome debt has to be severely restructured, reduced or eliminated through bankruptcy; city services have to become more efficient; and major incentives have to be created for businesses to move into the City and gentrification to take place -- good luck with all of that Detroit. I'd leave the cultural draws of the City in tact -- people have to have some symbols of hope. Not sure Detroit is toast -- I'm sure many capitalists will find a way to benefit from Detroit's current condition and move it forward.

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by heirloom To help bring "working" people back to Pittsburgh, they made a law that you now have to live in the city if you want a gov. job. The ones who already have a city job but don't live there are grandfathered from the law.

These residency laws were finally found to be against the state constitution in Ohio, but they are apparently okay in Michigan. I don't know how much Detroit will be served by forcing employees to live in the city--how much more will the city have to pay in order to get the same quality of employees? Think of an employee with a couple of kids who are getting a good education in a public school somewhere in the 'burbs--he'll need to pay private school tuition if he moves to Detroit. Then there are safety issues, etc. In Dayton, the city workers (police and firemen primarily) colonized one neighborhood in the city and things were pretty good there--lower crime, etc. But it didn't do much for the rest of the town.

Every municipal employee who lives in Detroit is another voter with an interest in increasing city spending on city workers.

Detroit needs productive private businesses that bring productive workers and all that comes with them (spending downtown, demand for housing, services, etc). Eventually that will result in increased tax payments.

[teejayevans]

The emergency mgr is Kevyn Orr, a non-political position, handled the Chrysler bankruptcy, saw him on FN sunday, my first impressions is he is quite intelligent and pragmatist, I think if the politicos stay out of it, they'll be able get through it.
TJ

[aja8888]

I was a Plant Superintendent for a manufacturing plant near downtown Detroit (Fort/Summit Street intersection location) from 1973 to 1977.

Our plant was in trouble those years (and earlier) as our labor force was not as "qualified" as was being attracted by the Big 3 at the time. We eventually closed the plant and now it is a bare lot. Back then, the city was providing tax incentives for businesses to invest capital to add jobs, etc. We got a several million dollar property tax freeze for installing some new furnace equipment, but it was not enough for our plant to survive.

Our biggest problem was attracting labor. We had to compete against the auto industry contracts and we could not get the skilled laborers asour wage scales and benefits were not as lucrative as theirs. We were a UAW unionized facility, however .

Eventually, we lost customers due to quality issues and had to shut down the third shift because the newer workers who ended up on that shift had major drug problems and caused a lot of issues with production.

That plant was in operation successfully in Detroit for 50 years. Sad to see it close. But, that is the case of several plants there. Even now, big auto is mostly moved out of the Detroit area.

The city has been decaying since I lived there and many of my work associates lived outside the city at that time. I lived in Livonia when I was there and left in 1977 for another assignment in the Company in Connecticut. Actually, the same type of issues are and have been happening in other cities in the U.S. where manufacturing has been the lifeblood of the area. It's Detroit's time in the limelight now.

[heirloom]

Quote:

If Detroit effectively disincorporates

It won't disincorporate. I forgot that one of the reasons Allegheny County moved sec. 8 people to suburbs is because the state got involved. They promised to lend money but only gave 1/3 of it up front. A yr later state people looked at the books to see if any real accomplishment was being made. Happy Pgh. was progressing, but they said it wasn't enough. Pgh had to decrease debt more b4 Penna. would give more money. This is what you don't want to hear....but health benefits had to be changed along with pensions for employees and salaries for new hires.....including big shots.

They used to be able to retire after 25 yrs with a full pension and benefits. Last yr was the final yr for that. They now have to wait until they are 60 to retire with a full pension and have to contribute to benefits . I think that is fair, I wasn't able to get a full pension at 62.

Detroit has everything a city needs for businesses...airport, water xportation, hospitals. They just need to clean the city up and get rid of trash, ?This will draw business there. It worked for NYC, Pgh and Miami, now its Detroits turn.

Quote:

how much more will the city have to pay in order to get the same quality of employees?

Someone just coming out of training will gladly take a job. Give them a couple yrs and their qualifications will be pretty good..

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Every municipal employee who lives in Detroit is another voter with an interest in increasing city spending on city workers

Until they realize they may lose their job some day because of greed. Greed doesn't work anymore, it has destroyed a few cities already and more are on their way unless employees wake up. I'll bet Chicago is next, and I know Harrisburg is on the list too.

[aja8888]

Quote:

Originally Posted by heirloom Detroit has everything a city needs for businesses...airport, water xportation, hospitals. They just need to clean the city up and get rid of trash, ?This will draw business there. It worked for NYC, Pgh and Miami, now its Detroits turn.

Detroit was a manufacturing city. They have lost the workforce and it's been replaced with unskilled workers, low property values, high taxes and crime. Big business is not about to invest billions to move back as they have too many other better alternatives.

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by heirloom Greed doesn't work anymore, it has destroyed a few cities already and more are on their way unless employees wake up.

I think an "awakening" is unlikely. The same factors that have driven Detroit to this point will keep it down unless something fundamentally changes.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aja8888 The city has been decaying since I lived there and many of my work associates lived outside the city at that time. I lived in Livonia when I was there and left in 1977 for another assignment in the Company in Connecticut. Actually, the same type of issues are and have been happening in other cities in the U.S. where manufacturing has been the lifeblood of the area. It's Detroit's time in the limelight now.

Very helpful on the ground report. Could you mention some other cities where similar if not necessarily as bad decay is going on? I know Dayton OH is in pretty bad shape, and of course has been a manufacturing powerhouse for most of the last century.

Ha

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by heirloom I'll bet Chicago is next, and I know Harrisburg is on the list too.

I am not that familiar with much of the Midwest, but doesn't Chicago have much more to build on if they manage to solve their social and political mess?

Ha

[plex]

Rust Belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 1st and 2nd map provided give a very good picture of where the problem areas all are. If you zero in on Wayne County, you can see it is in the center of a large red area, and when you look at change in income, it is dark red. You can also see that the three surrounding counties are green/dark green, illustrating the extreme surburban sprawl of the area.

Anywhere that is red on the first map and then dark red on the second map is going to be a decaying area. The other city in Michigan that is really badly decaying is Flint, it is basically almost an exact duplicate of Detroit, but on a much smaller scale, Flint isn't even a real city anymore due to the drop in population.

Under outcomes you can see the cities that were hit the worst, Detroit, Gary, Youngstown, Flint, and Cleveland are at the top. As you can see, while Pittsburgh and Chicago are up there, but aren't anywhere near to being in the same level of trouble as Detroit, Cleveland would be the closest comparably large city with major job losses, but Cleveland has transitioned much better it seems, as Cleveland has maintained income levels, despite being only 40% of Cleveland's peak size, just like Detroit has shrunk to only 40% of its peak size (it is light green on the map).

[heirloom]

Quote:

Detroit was a manufacturing city. They have lost the workforce and it's been replaced with unskilled workers, low property values, high taxes and crime.

Pittsburgh was a manuf. city too. Most of the steel mills are gone because of Chinese steel. We are now mostly a health & service industry. Some suburbs still have mills, but not like it used to be. People have re-educated themselves with the help of UC and it is working. But we are really lucky now because a lot of people are being subsidized with the Marcellus shell. Lets see if Mr. Obama puts a stop to this.

Quote:

I am not that familiar with much of the Midwest, but doesn't Chicago have much more to build on if they manage to solve their social and political mess?

Chicago is in trouble monetarily too...but they just signed a contract they can't afford with the teachers last year.

Allstate Insurance must be HQ'd in Chicago because they mentioned how they are cutting both health and pension benefits when they were talking abouc Chicago this past week.

[aja8888]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha Very helpful on the ground report. Could you mention some other cities where similar if not necessarily as bad decay is going on? I know Dayton OH is in pretty bad shape, and of course has been a manufacturing powerhouse for most of the last century. Ha

Another good example of this kind of manufacturing job loss and city decay (not to the extent of Detroit, though) is in the Naugatuck Valley in Connecticut. The affected towns include Torrington, Waterbury, Seymour, Ansonia, Derby and even Bridgeport. This area was home to most of the brass and copper manufacturing in the U.S. It was known as the Brass Center of the World at one time and was the home of companies such as the American Brass, Chase Brass, Bridgeport Brass, etc and even metals finishing plants operated by Uniroyal and others.

Foreign competition and lack of foresight by company executives for capital investment sunk these plants and there were thousands of job losses. In some of these towns, the largest employers are the city governments (cops, fire, trash collection, etc). All of the 100 year old plants are shut down and the landscape is eerily like Detroit's.

I was raised and worked there in engineering and eventually as a Plant Manager (Waterbury & Ansonia) until I left for another adventure and different career. That was the smartest move I have ever made in my working life.

Not like Detroit, but could be....

"Waterbury's economic decline in the 1970s and 1980s resulted in it being ranked as having the worst quality of life of 300 U.S. metropolitan areas by Money Magazine in 1992. Waterbury was rated as one of the "10 Worst Places to Live in America" in the 1999 Places Rated Almanac.[11] Waterbury was also rated as one of the "Worst Places for Businesses and Careers in America" by Forbes Magazine in April 2008.[12]"

Full Wiki on Waterbury:

Waterbury, Connecticut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Htown Harry]

It's probably not material to Detroit's future, but I'm curious. How is Windsor, Ontario, Canada doing across the river?

[jollystomper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Htown Harry It's probably not material to Detroit's future, but I'm curious. How is Windsor, Ontario, Canada doing across the river?

Windsor is a much smaller city and has be able to diversify to a much greater degree than Detroit. According to Wikipedia and various other online sources it has a very good outlook for the future. Due to its size and different governing policies in Canada, it is really an apples-to-oranges comparison with Detroit.

[Meadbh]

Windsor is one of many Ontario cities that have suffered economically from the shift away from manufacturing. It currently has a relatively high unemployment rate of over 9%, but it is rebounding. The economic centre of Canada is shifting west. Detroit and Windsor share some services, e.g pediatric brain surgery. The mayor of Windsor is calling the emergency administrator of Detroit in an effort to ensure that the tunnel between them remains open.

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