Difficult job decision!!!

[nun]

I think your university job's benefit's package is probably about $30,000 - $40,000 a year, if you look hard at it. So now the gap is only about $30,000 more to take the other job, with a lot of unknowns.

Since you only have 2-3 years left, stick with the job you know, its not like you'll be working 8-10 more years, right?

You're right. Part of my desire to ER is that I'm not excited about my job. Two more years and the mortgage will be paid at which point I can ER. The other job might have reinvigorated me, but it could have disappeared in 6 months.

 

[ziggy29]

It was really hard. My current job is a dead end and the other job was at a fantastic place with lots of cool toys and research. For my career it could have been a real plus.

Maybe there's a "grass is always greener" aspect of it to me. I can't imagine giving up a six-figure university job with a high level of job security and out of this world benefits. Not until I knew I never had to work again, anyway, or it was stressful to the point of impairing my health.

 

[nun]

Maybe there's a "grass is always greener" aspect of it to me. I can't imagine giving up a six-figure university job with a high level of job security and out of this world benefits. Not until I knew I never had to work again, anyway, or it was stressful to the point of impairing my health.

The boredom is pretty stressful....I'm being serious. The strange thing is that if I was ERed I wouldn't be bored as I have lots to do at home

 

[Meadbh]

The boredom is pretty stressful....I'm being serious. The strange thing is that if I was ERed I wouldn't be bored as I have lots to do at home

Can you take a sabbatical? A paid one, I mean? To reinvigorate your career, and all that? Maybe go to Australia and check out what they are doing there in your research area....

If FinanceDude is right and your university benefits package is worth $30-$40K a year, you are very lucky. Mine is probably worth $10K.

 

[nun]

Can you take a sabbatical? A paid one, I mean? To reinvigorate your career, and all that? Maybe go to Australia and check out what they are doing there in your research area....

If FinanceDude is right and your university benefits package is worth $30-$40K a year, you are very lucky. Mine is probably worth $10K.

I have 2 months vacation saved up so I could take that, but I just might not come back

 

[Walt34]

Those who think of a 45minute commute is a hardship never worked in the northeast.

Amen to that! When I retired I passed on a $100k/year job (to start) because of that very issue, even though the work itself would have been fascinating. Sitting in traffic choking on diesel fumes two hours or more a day is not the way I wanted to live.

 

[HpRyder]

For a Secret level clearance, I know many dual nationality contract workers. All of them noted this on their clearance application. None of them were required to give up their foreign citizenship. A couple had the foreign embassy hold their passport and collected it when they went home for vacation. When you apply for a secret you get an interim secret clearance in a few months, then maybe 8 or 9 months later you get the final secret clearance. Only a few of these contractors ever talked with a DoD investigator.

A TS is a much more intensive investigation, taking much longer, but that is not what you indicated you'll apply for.

I don't think its the clearance you have to worry about, but how long the company will keep you working on the contract when the gov cancels the contract or when the gov starts playing delayed funding games. Remember, you can be dismissed with no notice. As a contractor you are hired to be fired. On one contract job I was been given 5 min. notice to clear out. I got paid for the time, but had virtually no notice. Other jobs I got 2 months notice.

 

[growing_older]

If it were me, I'd consider this an easy and overwhelming choice. The University job is what I'd pick and I'm surprised you were even looking at the other one. Perhaps you've been where you are long enough to have forgotten the dog-eat-dog world of high priced consultants. The first to go in downturns. The first pick for scut work. The snarky expectations that you justify that high salary and the constant talk of cutbacks, cancellations or downsizing.

In relatively short time you are FI. Why risk that for high pressure, high uncertainty and a real mess if it blows up on you? Start figuring out what you are going to do in 2-3 years, not hassling your way through those last few years trying not to burn out or crash your plan with early termination.

 

[harley]

I think you made the right choice. Just judging by your avatar, you might have trouble with the anal probe required for TS clearance. I would only make the change if the new job was exactly what I had always wanted to do, not just "more interesting". Also, since the current administration is going to end the wars, there may be cuts in defense spending . Many contractors I've dealt with have a LIFO policy, so you might end up with no job.

 

[Delawaredave5]

Those who think of a 45minute commute is a hardship never worked in the northeast.
I'm leaning for you to stay in your current job. Besides more money it seems to allow for an easier transition to ER. The new job sounds more stressful.

Above is exactly what I was thinking....

 

[nun]

For a Secret level clearance, I know many dual nationality contract workers. All of them noted this on their clearance application. None of them were required to give up their foreign citizenship. A couple had the foreign embassy hold their passport and collected it when they went home for vacation.

Foreign preference and foreign influence are the things they look for. Each case is individual, but using a foreign passport without the OK of the US is definitely showing a foreign preference and could easily result in a clearance being revoked. I think my avatar does finally reflect my misgivings about being told by one government to give up any rights I have as a citizen of another country. Maybe I'm too sensitive or a bit paranoid, but watching England play the USA in the world cup I was 100% behind England and willing the USA to loose so how could I say that my loyalties are 100% with the USA. It's at that visceral level that security issues need to be considered.

 

[Westernskies]

What would Jackson Browne do? Here's your answer:

YouTube - Jackson Browne - Stay - Live

 

[HpRyder]

My UK friends were dubious about giving up the UK passport.

The DoD doesn’t take your passport. Nor do they require you to renounce your UK citizenship. In fact, you don’t own your passport. It is the property of a government. They only allow you to hold it. You can return it to the UK embassy and have them hold it for you or you can keep it in your possession.

The contractor told me there were quite a few dual citizens working on the program, so either they could legitimately deny their other citizenship or they weren't as much of a stickler for the truth as me.

Wrong. They probably disclosed on the security application their dual citizenship. So DoD was fully aware of it when they granted them their clearance. Do you seriously think an investigation of 10 years of their past would not uncover their dual citizenship? Investigators not that inept.

The other job might have reinvigorated me, but it could have disappeared in 6 months.

In fact that job could disappear in 1 minute. As a contractor you are employed minute to minute. You have no job security, you are employed at will. Just like a full time employee, only more expensive. I’ve had jobs disappear over the week end and only known about it when I showed up to work.

Foreign preference and foreign influence are the things they look for.

True, but all you have to do is disclose your foreign relatives / friends on the application. No big deal, since you have to also give local contact disclose. Foreign preference and foreign influence are not the only important factors. They also consider very important your financial profile, any illegal drug use … A lot of other very important things, not just your foreign contacts.

but using a foreign passport without the OK of the US is definitely showing a foreign preference.

Not true. Your passport use is not showing a foreign preference, nor is approval needed. Especially at the relative low security level (Secret) you've indicated you'll apply for. There is no monitoring of your comings & goings. Your only requirement is to disclose.

easily result in a clearance being revoked.

Unless you get into a great deal of serious trouble either in the US or overseas to come to their attention, the only time I've ever heard that revocation is a possibility is after an extensive investigation. Think transmittal of material substantially above the Secret level to a foreign government. Then, only after an extensive investigation over many years. Typically a clearance is just not renewed, based on your disclosures. As an example, I know of a Chinese national who made many many trips back home to visit his family. This was considered too excessive and they did not renew his clearance at renewal time, based on his disclosure. They never revoked it.

told by one government to give up any rights I have as a citizen of another country.

Where did you ever get this idea? DoD doesn’t tell you to give up any rights. They only ask for disclosure, and that you don’t break any US laws.

loyalties are 100% with the USA.

There is no loyalty test, only your contractual agreement not to disclose information and follow the rules to prevent disclosing information entrusted to you. I believe loyalty tests have been banned.

It's at that visceral level that security issues need to be considered.

Oh absolutely. By the way, what security issues are you thinking about? Disclosing information to those without a need to know, publishing classified information, selling classified information to foreign governments, deliberately not properly securing information entrusted to you?

 

[chris2008]

Now that the decision is taken I would look for strategies to make my job and the commute more interesting, to negotiate for more flextime and home office for one day per week, to make best use of all a university has to offer (free lectures?).
Could you use the other offer as a tool for negotiating your work situation?

 

[chinaco]

If you are sure you only have 2 years left... why complicate your life and add risk at this point?

You can take a stab at calculating the benefit (value difference between the two options). Will the potential benefit be worth the risk and hassle?

 

[nun]

The DoD doesn’t take your passport. Nor do they require you to renounce your UK citizenship. In fact, you don’t own your passport. It is the property of a government. They only allow you to hold it. You can return it to the UK embassy and have them hold it for you or you can keep it in your possession.

True, but as a condition of getting the job offer the FSO at the contractor required me to cut up my British passport so that it couldn't be used and then held it in my security file as proof that I could no longer travel on it.

In fact that job could disappear in 1 minute. As a contractor you are employed minute to minute. You have no job security, you are employed at will. Just like a full time employee, only more expensive. I’ve had jobs disappear over the week end and only known about it when I showed up to work.

Exactly, and I was worried about that.

Not true. Your passport use is not showing a foreign preference, nor is approval needed. Especially at the relative low security level (Secret) you've indicated you'll apply for. There is no monitoring of your comings & goings. Your only requirement is to disclose.

This is not what I understood from my research. I renewed my UK passport after I got US citizenship which could be considered foreign preference, but it would have been mitigated by my not understanding the clearance issues and by surrendering my UK passport to the FSO.
I would also have been required to report all foreign travel to the FSO.

Where did you ever get this idea? DoD doesn’t tell you to give up any rights. They only ask for disclosure, and that you don’t break any US laws.

There is no loyalty test, only your contractual agreement not to disclose information and follow the rules to prevent disclosing information entrusted to you. I believe loyalty tests have been banned.

The briefing I was given stated that to get a clearance I would not be able to exercise any rights or privileges of my British citizenship. I wouldn't be giving them up exactly, but promising not to use them.
As a dual citizen I would not have got an interim clearance, but I would have been able to work on non-classified things while my SF86 was being processed. I was told that it would take between 6 and 12 months for me
to have an interview. I might have "passed" that, however, if I'd ever been asked about willingness to renounce British citizenship I would have said "No". I know that they don't require you to actually revoke another citizenship, but I don't think that answer would have been helpful in getting the clearance.

In the end I was not willing to take a contract job that depended on a clearance that I think I have a 50/50 chance of getting.

Also put yourself in my position. If you are a natural born US citizen and moved to the UK and took UK citizenship, would you feel comfortable cutting up your US passport to get a UK defence job?

 

[HpRyder]

True, but as a condition of getting the job offer the FSO at the contractor

As I remember, FSO stands for Foreign Service Office, not Department Of Defense. Was this a Department Of State contract position?

required me to cut up my British passport so that it couldn't be used and then held it in my security file as proof that I could no longer travel on it.

That is a company requirement, not a DoD one. I'm pretty sure its illegal. And I've never heard of it occurring at a company working a DoD contract in the US. But thats not to say it never does. Companies do very funny things these days. I remember long ago reading about some middle eastern countries imported workers. Upon entry to the country to work they took their passports and kept them at the company. The companies later refuse to return the passports so the workers become essentially company captives. This requirement smacks of that same approach and I don't think its legal.

This is not what I understood from my research. I renewed my UK passport after I got US citizenship which could be considered foreign preference, but it would have been mitigated by my not understanding the clearance issues and by surrendering my UK passport to the FSO.

I've known & worked with many contractors with foreign passports. Last year one of them had his house burn to the ground. His family was back home visiting and he was at work. He was left with only his car, the money in his pocket, his credit cards and the clothes he was wearing. Among his papers burnt to ashes was his foreign passport. He had only a small amount of trouble getting a new one issued. The regional security office assisted him in getting a replacement. If it was a DoD security requirement for him not to have a foreign passport, they sure would not have helped him. Since he was planning to leave the country to visit his family for hollidays, they did require him to deposit his passport at the foreign embassy so his travels would be tracked via his US passport. In no case did they suggest destruction of his passport or that he renounce his foreign citizenship.

I would also have been required to report all foreign travel to the FSO.

Typically you notify a company security officer, not DoD, of your foreign travel plans and they brief you about current situations in those areas, situations you should be aware of and suggest to you how to act to not draw attention to yourself. Not a big deal, takes about 10 minutes and is not intrusive.

The briefing I was given stated that to get a clearance I would not be able to exercise any rights or privileges of my British citizenship. I wouldn't be giving them up exactly, but promising not to use them.

As a foreign national in the US, what rights or privileges would these be? Not to use the British Embassy? Avoid paying taxes, social security contributions,...? Foreign nationals in the US pretty much have the same rights & privileges as US citizens. The only thing I can currently think of is a foreign pension. But that would be declaired on your US tax return & taxed.

As a dual citizen I would not have got an interim clearance,

Really, this is news to me. I'll have to call my shops security officer and ask.

but I would have been able to work on non-classified things while my SF86 was being processed. I was told that it would take between 6 and 12 months for me to have an interview.

Typical approach in the industry is to have you work on non-classified or sanitized items, in a segregated area.

I might have "passed"

As you realise, the company does not "pass" you. They have no real input into the decision. They cannot review your online application answers. They don't handle youre SF86 at all. They only give you the account one time use password to start the time limited application. In fact, any time they ask how your application is going the only answer they get is "its in process".

if I'd ever been asked about willingness to renounce British citizenship

You will never be asked. You've already swarn allegiance to the US when you accepted US citizenship.

In the end I was not willing to take a contract job that depended on a clearance that I think I have a 50/50 chance of getting.

I think you had a much better than 50/50 chance, probably like 80% chance. After all you've already been working in the US for an extended period.

Also put yourself in my position. If you are a natural born US citizen and moved to the UK and took UK citizenship, would you feel comfortable cutting up your US passport to get a UK defence job?

No. I'd pass on working for this company and find another company placing contractors at the same client site. Rairly does a client use only one job shop to fill contractor positions.

I think you conclusion, based on financial, not clearance considerations is the correct one for you.

 

[nun]

HpRyder,
FSO is Facility Security Officer.

As you know I was dealing with the contractor and not the DoD. Giving up the passport was required by the contractor, it might be illegal, but I wasn't going to argue.

As a British citizen major privilege is the use of the British passport, I've voted in a UK election since getting my US citizenship and I continue to pay into the UK social security system. But the major thing is the emotional connection to the UK

 

[kumquat]

Seems to me it should be an "Easy Job Decision" and you have made it. Congrats on integrity.

Bottomline I couldn't make those promises in good faith. I would have just been making them to get the clearance and once I'd left the company and lost the clearance I would have applied for a new passport.

 

[nun]

Seems to me it should be an "Easy Job Decision" and you have made it. Congrats on integrity.

Well, I'm in a field where most exciting work needs a security clearance, and that's where most of the jobs are too. So by deciding not to pursue a clearance I've probably limited my job opportunities by 70%, hence the
difficulty of my decision