DIY Will ????

no limit as they are carved out of estate. Has nothing to do with having a final return done, inheritance taxes assessed if necessary, ect. TOD / POD (same as Totten Trusts?) can only cover liquid assets + primary residence in states that permit that (California does)

Correct but people need to remember the D stands for death. You need to have POAs in place so someone can access your money is you become disabled. How do your bills get paid otherwise if you are disabled? A conservatorship which is a probate during life and much worse than a probate after death (expensive, public and cumbersome).

As for the California transfer on death deeds title companies are not honoring these as people failed to record the warning page with it. Look it up. Title companies (who are above the supreme court in reality) have made people go through probate even though they put transfer on death deeds in place. It's a big mess.

A properly funded living trust avoids all these problems. In a high probate cost state, like Cali, a trust is mandatory for anybody in my opinion. I should add I am an attorney and do not do trusts. I do other facets in the estate world. I am just stating facts to help people.

People can dance around it, try to save money with Nolo (and others), but at the end of the day people should hire an experienced estate attorney to do their trust. I have cleaned up countless DIYer wills after death and it's cost families tens of thousands of dollars because their loved ones tried to "save" a few bucks. People who think they know what they are doing often do not and it's found out after death when it's too late.
 
Correct but people need to remember the D stands for death. You need to have POAs in place so someone can access your money is you become disabled. How do your bills get paid otherwise if you are disabled?
everything is on autopay set to pay in full / deposit in full
As for the California transfer on death deeds title companies are not honoring these as people failed to record the warning page with it. Look it up. Title companies (who are above the supreme court in reality) have made people go through probate even though they put transfer on death deeds in place. It's a big mess.
So I was right for not taking it out of the trust (it's the only thing in it). Who'd think I could be right by not doing something!! :cool:
 
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Each state has its own complications. In Washington, we suffer from a very severe estate tax of which the exemption value is not portable from the 1st spouses death. It is a community property state, so a will per say, can be optional for the first spouse, but the estate exemption can only be preserved through a trust structure. If the estate passes to the surviving spouse, the single spouse exemption is all you maintain at death of the second spouse. To avoid this, all community assets of major value are maintained for the trustees benefit within the Trust. I interviewed several so called attorney's, none of which fully understood how to build an estate plan that I considered complete even using their software. My friends who practice law advised their firm provides services for their own estate plans using a software package. I did a trial of Fore! Trust, and estate planning package that is often used by attorney's in several states. I was impressed by the interview process and simple input to create an QTIP trust with a Clayton provision and specific language to the laws of Washington to allow the surviving spouse discretion in funding the ongoing estate trusts, and preserving exemptions to the states limit on taxation of individual assets, as well as the exemption limits for US estate tax. (this is now likely less of an issue). Their is even an IRA trust that can be used to maintain the IRA in trust to avoid earlier distribution and taxation. I believe most on this forum could take the time and model an estate plan using this type of software, and then go in prepared to talk to an attorney to finalize it. For some, it may certainly be worth purchasing to be able to update your plan ongoing.

Nolosoft is very poor for modeling an estate plan, but for a simple Will without Estate tax issues it can address. I use Turbo Tax every year to model my taxes, but it is not good enough. My accountants software generates more eloquent solutions, and Turbo Tax is dead wrong on treatment of Sub S paid Health premiums for example. So beware they make a limited product for the masses, and never an error free product.
 
Actually its situations that involve minor children and special-needs heirs that can be concerning....

Kids: Your daughter inherits, she and her spouse die in a car crash, intestate, leaving two small children. The money may go to his parents as automatic guardians or it may go to a guardian appointed by the state, or ..., or..., or..., depending totally on state law and the decisions of a judge who knows nothing about any of the parties or their wishes.

But, hey, those internet wills are easy and cheap. Go for it!

Well, if the daughter inherits, and then she and spouse die, I really don't think my will/trust can do anything at that point? It is/was her money.

But if she dies before inheriting, well, according to my nolo book, it is normally set up that the successor trustees would mange a trust for the surviving children that were named as alternate beneficiaries. It says contact a lawyer if you want someone other than the successor trustees - so they offer options, not trying to 'force' you into one size fits all.

And I looked at the documents I have that were prepared by "pros" - I don't see any difference.

-ERD50
 
This topic has got me wound up now.

Since I'm still w@rking :)-X), I need to take CLE (continuing legal education) courses to maintain my bar admission. Usually I take course related to my practice area, but we are always encouraged to "broaden" our horizons and that's what I'm going to do.

Hmm, I see there's several courses on estates and trusts in the CLE catalogue. Think I'll check some of those out.

So far, I've signed up for:
  • Estate Planning: MCLE BasicsPlus!
  • Will & Trust Drafting
  • Asset Protection Fundamentals: What Attorneys Should Know to Advise the Moderate Net Worth Clients
  • Estate Planning Misfires of the Rich and Famous
 
But, hey, those internet wills are easy and cheap. Go for it!

It really depends upon the degree of complexity in one's situation. I would say a DIY will is no different than DIY tax returns using internet software. If your case is straightforward why pay a CPA or paid preparer to use essentially the same software to complete your return. Again it isn't a one size fits all and some common sense is warranted.

I want to thank everyone that contributed to this thread as all perspectives are appreciated and I'm sure we have all learned something. The one thing that simply amazes me about this forum is how one post can blossom like a flower with the collective knowledge and experiences of the people who contribute. Again, thanks all, mucho appreciated.

As for my will, I will do it myself using boilerplate language copied and pasted from examples on the internet. My situation is straightforward but as a side note I have a couple of attorney friends I play golf with and will get their input as long as they don't ask for any strokes and count the advice as billable hours !
 
I believe even a "pour over" Will as part of a trust has to be probated. At least that's what I've read several times while trying to decide between a Will and a Trust.

It's possible every state is different. I had always heard that assets needed to be moved to a trust to avoid probate too. In fact, when I had a lawyer write mine 15 years ago, he attached a dollar bill to initially fund the trust. Also as my Mother's POA, I "moved" most all of her assets to her marital trust before she passed as instructed by her lawyer.

I mentioned the "pour over" because that is how a very expensive estate lawyer (well known and respected in my state) wrote my Dad's will. None of his assets were titled to the trust and the assets did not have to be probated. He was the last to pass. In all cases though (both Mom's and Dads), an accounting was done.

Either the lawyer was right...and in my state it was allowed via this pour over clause or he wasn't worth the money I'm sure he was paid ..which goes back to the point of whether it is worth it or not to hire lawyers for this, if fairly simple. By simple, I mean leaving things to your children or grandchildren that are straightforward, not tied up in trust for 50 plus years, etc. Except I know we did not probate my Dad's assets so the "pour over" clause worked just fine.
 
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We will update our will this month, now that all of the kids are legally adults and mostly on their own. We will use the software to generate a will, then use an attorney to review and validate it. It fairly simple - some money set aside for a few special people/charities and the rest divided among the kids - so we are not anticipating any problems.
 
We will update our will this month, now that all of the kids are legally adults and mostly on their own. We will use the software to generate a will, then use an attorney to review and validate it. It fairly simple - some money set aside for a few special people/charities and the rest divided among the kids - so we are not anticipating any problems.

Please report back when you can. I've read that lawyers really don't want to take on a review of someone else's forms (though that's essentially at they are doing with the software they buy).


-ERD50
 
Please report back when you can. I've read that lawyers really don't want to take on a review of someone else's forms (though that's essentially at they are doing with the software they buy).


-ERD50

Along this same line, I ran into a bit of an issue getting it notarized. Banks here are no longer notarizing wills or trust. Finding a lawyer to notarize something they didn't write was a bit problematic too. But I found one. I suppose one can find any notary to do it. After all, they are just notarizing that it is "you" signing.

You will need witnesses too.
 
It's possible every state is different. I had always heard that assets needed to be moved to a trust to avoid probate too. In fact, when I had a lawyer write mine 15 years ago, he attached a dollar bill to initially fund the trust. Also as my Mother's POA, I "moved" most all of her assets to her marital trust before she passed as instructed by her lawyer.

I mentioned the "pour over" because that is how a very expensive estate lawyer (well known and respected in my state) wrote my Dad's will. None of his assets were titled to the trust and the assets did not have to be probated. He was the last to pass. In all cases though (both Mom's and Dads), an accounting was done.

Either the lawyer was right...and in my state it was allowed via this pour over clause or he wasn't worth the money I'm sure he was paid ..which goes back to the point of whether it is worth it or not to hire lawyers for this, if fairly simple. By simple, I mean leaving things to your children or grandchildren that are straightforward, not tied up in trust for 50 plus years, etc. Except I know we did not probate my Dad's assets so the "pour over" clause worked just fine.

In your dads case, do you know if there were any "titled" assets (such as a house) that were moved inside the trust after death as part of the "pour over" will (without probate)?

I've sent an email to the lawyer that did my will asking about these "pour over" wills connected to trusts.
 
We do not have a will either. The problem is there is only 2 of us with no heirs and siblings who will more than likely be gone before us. We have POD on ALL our Accounts, they are joint anyway with each other as beneficiaries, the properties are in both names.

I really do need to do one, even if just leaves all to The "Blind Dogs" or whatever DW wants. I personally have no preference who gets it all when we are both gone.

No excuse though, a New Years Resolution. I will use Nolo Will maker and get it notarized, and give a copy to the executor.
 
everything is on autopay set to pay in full / deposit in full So I was right for not taking it out of the trust (it's the only thing in it). Who'd think I could be right by not doing something!! :cool:

Gayl- Yes, sounds like you did good to keep your trust and the house in it. If you have a trust you might as well put your bank accounts in it. Remember that you have all current bills on autopay but when a person becomes incapacitated a new bill will arrive (i.e. caretakers, medical, etc...). Having a person with access to the accounts is important. Since you already have a trust you might as well use it! Good luck.
 
In your dads case, do you know if there were any "titled" assets (such as a house) that were moved inside the trust after death as part of the "pour over" will (without probate)?

I've sent an email to the lawyer that did my will asking about these "pour over" wills connected to trusts.

All of his assets including the family home were moved/transferred to the trust after his death and without probate. No assets had been titled to the trust prior to his passing.

Part of the reason for using a Trust Document ...is not just to avoid probate but it is also for privacy. It keeps the public from knowing the assets and "what the heirs" receive.

If all of the details are stated in a Will...then the public has access to it since Wills are filed with the courts. Trust Documents do not have to be filed with the courts. At least not in my state. A "pour over" clause to a Trust, in a Will is also vague enough that the public won't know what you have or what you are leaving.

As another aside...everyone needs a will so their estate is not deemed "intestate" where the state decides how assets are distributed based on state laws/formulas, etc. I can't imagine how long THAT takes!!!
 
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But the problem becomes, how does the average person find an attorney that they can be sure does know their stuff?

I have been unimpressed with the place my in-laws used, even though they have all the credentials that would make you think they are a top notch place. I found mistakes in their documents, they couldn't explain things that they wrote 20 years ago (same guy). Their software spits out generic boilerplate to dazzle the client.

But at least with something like NOLO, it has some of the benefits of open-source software. There have been many, many eyes on it, it's standardized and there is feedback to improve it. I'm sure that's not perfect, but I personally have far more faith in it than some private practice where I have no real way to verify if they are competent or not.

-ERD50

To begin with you can look for lawyers that are board certified in Estate Planning and probate.
 
I'm an avid DIYer on almost everything. Wills and related documents are no exception. Fortunately, our situation is very straightforward... two adult children, no prior marriages, no complicated assets or scenarios, assets that can all be titled with TOD/POD/beneficiaries, and unlikely to exceed estate tax threshold.

In our case, 98% of our net worth is in assets that are either jointly owned with TOD to our 2 kids, or individually owned with spouse as primary beneficiary and kids as 50/50 contingent beneficiaries (and per stirpes). Even real estate is jointly owned with TOD to the kids. Texas allows TOD deeds for real estate. If one of us dies, the survivor gets everything. If we both die at the same time, the kids get everything 50/50. Only the cars and household goods (the other 2%) would potentially go through probate, and from what I've read, even that is avoidable in Texas. We also have a will, including living will and durable POA, that we did on legalzoom for around $200 IIRC.
 
I could probably write a very long response to this but there are so many variables in estate planning, wills, probates, etc, that I'm not sure anyone would care or find it useful. However, after being the executor of several wills (two were over 1m estates) I have found that POD's and TOD's can be wonderful things in many "simple" estates even if there's a good deal of money (1m+) involved.

Example the last one I did had POD on all financial accounts which totally bypassed the need for any probate. The only thing that needed probate was for the sale of a house and car, which could have been handled outside probate too if a little more planning had been done.
 
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Along this same line, I ran into a bit of an issue getting it notarized. Banks here are no longer notarizing wills or trust. Finding a lawyer to notarize something they didn't write was a bit problematic too. But I found one. I suppose one can find any notary to do it. After all, they are just notarizing that it is "you" signing.

You will need witnesses too.
I think I remember that being an issue with folks trust .... not witnessed or notarized. I learned a lot about what not to do and this thread is bringing up additional issues (like incapacitated VS dead)
Having a person with access to the accounts is important. Since you already have a trust you might as well use it! Good luck.
 
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I'm an avid DIYer on almost everything. Wills and related documents are no exception. Fortunately, our situation is very straightforward... two adult children, no prior marriages, no complicated assets or scenarios, assets that can all be titled with TOD/POD/beneficiaries, and unlikely to exceed estate tax threshold.

In our case, 98% of our net worth is in assets that are either jointly owned with TOD to our 2 kids, or individually owned with spouse as primary beneficiary and kids as 50/50 contingent beneficiaries (and per stirpes). Even real estate is jointly owned with TOD to the kids. Texas allows TOD deeds for real estate. If one of us dies, the survivor gets everything. If we both die at the same time, the kids get everything 50/50. Only the cars and household goods (the other 2%) would potentially go through probate, and from what I've read, even that is avoidable in Texas. We also have a will, including living will and durable POA, that we did on legalzoom for around $200 IIRC.

We're in the same situation. Everything is POD/TOD with the exception of houses and cars, all of which can be set up TOD if we want to. The vast majority of our money is in IRA's with POD to our 3 kids per stripes.

I'm just trying to figure out if we want to "control from the grave" what ultimately happens to our money for things like:

1) Do we want all of the money to be distributed at once or over time? Our oldest is 32 and youngest 19. Do we really want a 19 year old to come into decent money at that age, as unlikely as that would be?

2) If something should happen to our DD, do we want to do something that makes sure our money is left to the grandkids and not my SIL's next wife?

3) One DD isn't really very good with money. Do we want to set up a Trust and have a Trustee handle the money management for her and give the other kids theirs right away? Probably not.

There a lot of these kinds of things that can happen. Do I worry about it, or just work to make sure everything goes to the beneficiaries without probate? Haven't decided yet.
 
To begin with you can look for lawyers that are board certified in Estate Planning and probate.

Sounds good, but I just spent 15 minutes googling, and came up blank.

I'm pretty good with search engines, found plenty of sites that allowed a lawyer search by state, and board certification specialty, but nada, zip.

Did I screw up somehow (how?)? Or is it really that rare, or just not search-able? Seems anyone board certified would want to promote that.

OK, found two lawyers in the entire Chicago area here:

EPLS Introduction - NAEPC

But it's not clear how official this certification (designation?) is - info is a little sketchy, is this just a "pay to add initials to your business card" and take 15 hours of "continuous education" a year?


-ERD50
 
Sounds good, but I just spent 15 minutes googling, and came up blank.

I'm pretty good with search engines, found plenty of sites that allowed a lawyer search by state, and board certification specialty, but nada, zip.

Did I screw up somehow (how?)? Or is it really that rare, or just not search-able? Seems anyone board certified would want to promote that.

OK, found two lawyers in the entire Chicago area here:

EPLS Introduction - NAEPC

But it's not clear how official this certification (designation?) is - info is a little sketchy, is this just a "pay to add initials to your business card" and take 15 hours of "continuous education" a year?


-ERD50


"Board certified" or in California "Certified specialist" are a great start. In California, for example, there is a list by county on the state bar website. I imagine Illinois has similar.

Other things to look for:
- years of experience (you can't beat that);
- focus on estate planning (not general practitioner);
- ask if they do the work or a young associate attorney or paralegal;
- lawyers.com (Martindale Hubbel) is the oldest ratings service - look for "AV" rated - though this is far from perfect;
- lesser rating sites include avvo.com (look for 10.0);
- recommendations from trusted professionals/friends who are like minded;

Good luck.
 
"Board certified" or in California "Certified specialist" are a great start. In California, for example, there is a list by county on the state bar website. I imagine Illinois has similar.
...

No, Illinois didn't give me anything on board certification. Again, unless my google skills are just failing me.

....

Other things to look for:
- years of experience (you can't beat that);
- focus on estate planning (not general practitioner);
- ask if they do the work or a young associate attorney or paralegal;
- lawyers.com (Martindale Hubbel) is the oldest ratings service - look for "AV" rated - though this is far from perfect;
- lesser rating sites include avvo.com (look for 10.0);
- recommendations from trusted professionals/friends who are like minded;

Good luck.

Thanks, but sorry, that list just doesn't do it for me. An actual board certification might help, but not that list. The lawyers.com site didn't seem to be much different from a yellow pages search.

Sound too much like how to find an FA. Years of experience and references don't tell me anything about what they do for customers - most customers don't know if they are getting their money's worth or not anyhow.


-ERD50
 
No, Illinois didn't give me anything on board certification. Again, unless my google skills are just failing me.



Thanks, but sorry, that list just doesn't do it for me. An actual board certification might help, but not that list. The lawyers.com site didn't seem to be much different from a yellow pages search.

Sound too much like how to find an FA. Years of experience and references don't tell me anything about what they do for customers - most customers don't know if they are getting their money's worth or not anyhow.


-ERD50

When looking at lawyers.com you look for the "av" rating. That, along with experience, along with focus on estate planning, likely will lead you to a very good attorney. Like most things in life there is not a perfect answer for all. This organization is reputable and they have a certification program. They have some attorneys in Illinois. Here you go: Search Estate Planning Law Specialists - NAEPC
 
I have been told that my Google Fu is pretty good and I can't find anyone certified or licensed by the state of Illinois. But to be honest, we are talking about our state, Illinois! I looked at Wisconsin and found some lawyers that specialize in, among many other things, Estate Law. When checking their credentials, I was referred to the National Association of Estate Planners and Councils. NAEPC.org. the certification acronym on your business card would be "AEP".

In order to bone of them, "One must be actively licensed or certified as an accountant; attorney; insurance and financial planner; philanthropic advisor; or trust officer – holding one or more of the following designations or degrees in active status and good standing: CAP®*, CFA, CFP®, ChFC®, CLU®, CPA, CPWA®, CSPG, CTFA, MSFS, and MST"

"an applicant must have completed at least 30 hours of continuing education, 15 of which must have been in estate planning, during the 24 months prior to applying for the designation; active designees must meet this same requirement every two years and certify compliance to the NAEPC on an annual basis."

"one must have been actively practicing for a minimum of 5 years devoting at least 1/3 of one’s professional time to estate planning and estate planning activities in one of the disciplines listed above"

Here's the good one: "an applicant must be highly recommended by three unrelated, credentialed professionals in differing disciplines who have worked collaboratively with the applicant as part of the estate planning team"

from the website, it sounds more like a good-'ol-boy network with some educational requirements. But it seems that this org has no real "licensing" attribute.

edit: It looks like CaliKid also found these guys.
 
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