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Old 01-04-2014, 02:56 PM   #81
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Before Christmas a few friends and I went to a very plush independent living facility that has a separate restaurant that is open for lunch . Huge fireplaces with plush couches ,a lovely dining room with great food , and excellent care . So yes I want to be able to afford it if I need it . I also enjoy giving to my family so sign me up for the rich wannabes club.
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:34 PM   #82
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Agree, but my "enough" might be your "rich" and vice versa. Spending and wealth is so personal...
The more one has, the more he spends. It's only natural. Only a few posters here have shown unusual restraints that most of us do not possess.

As frugal as I think I am, I am not beyond spending more money just to get a bit more pleasure. However, I do not have that money. If I were a decamillionaire, I would not mind paying for 1st class seats to spare the contortion on this aging body. Most people here would too.

And about getting more money, other than being lucky with stock picks, it usually involves work! People come to this forum because they are already bummed out. So, they have to make do with what they have at this point. We cannot beat ourselves up for lack of money if we do not want to work.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:41 PM   #83
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There are two type of rich people as I see in this forum: ones who can and will spend their money to fund their life style, and the rest (majority?) who continues to live below their means for piece of their mind, out of habit, to leave money to their children, etc.. I am definitely the former (minority?) if I ever be "rich."
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:03 PM   #84
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My question is does anybody not want to be rich? However, retiring is kind of a bass-ackwards approach to this goal, so most of us will not reach the goal. Other of course than various touchy-feely rephrasings of what it means to be rich. "I am rich because I have many times the average net worth in Burkina Faso".

I think ClifP more means the kind of rich that when you are siting at your 25th college reunion table with your still attractive wife, some former classmate comes in with someone who looks like an 18 year old Penelope Cruz, and you think, that b*stad has lapped me 1000 times!

Ha
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:49 PM   #85
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"I am rich because I have many times the average net worth in Burkina Faso".
The average net worth across OECD countries is 40.5K in US dollars.

We have a lot of family outside the U.S., so I tend to look at what we have through their eyes. Most people here probably don't think of their appliances as lavish, but I have a relative very proud of her "American" size freezer.
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:49 PM   #86
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I save over half my income. I save for the day that I am financially independent. I like my work well enough. When I retire, I will be retiring *to* something, not *from* work.

Having said that, I am conflicted about saving so much. I know that I won't be happy living as I live now long term. In some sense I do feel that I am cheating myself today to hit FI as quickly as possible.

After I hit my 'number' I'll increase my spending in step with a 3% withdrawal rate until I reach a point of diminishing returns. I don't really see a better way to approach it.
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:55 PM   #87
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We cannot beat ourselves up for lack of money if we do not want to work.
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Old 01-05-2014, 07:50 AM   #88
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Yes, you wouldn't expect a lot of talk about being rich on an early retirement site. Way more discussion about LBYM (eg dryer sheets). Also, I think there is a rational tendency for people to convince themselves that they are satisfied with what they have and really wouldn't know what to spend extra money on. To think otherwise calls into question their decision to ER and could introduce a level of regret into their thinking which wouldn't be good.
But, I think the OP raises a good question. If the risk wasn't any more why wouldn't you go for it once retired? Why stop playing the "game"? Are we really that locked into our current situations, that we couldn't possibly think of anything to aspire to?
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Old 01-05-2014, 08:17 AM   #89
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I think it really boils down to people hating to lose money more than they like gaining it.

Some people like gambling, some are indifferent to it, but I think most dislike it.

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Yes, you wouldn't expect a lot of talk about being rich on an early retirement site. Way more discussion about LBYM (eg dryer sheets). Also, I think there is a rational tendency for people to convince themselves that they are satisfied with what they have and really wouldn't know what to spend extra money on. To think otherwise calls into question their decision to ER and could introduce a level of regret into their thinking which wouldn't be good.
But, I think the OP raises a good question. If the risk wasn't any more why wouldn't you go for it once retired? Why stop playing the "game"? Are we really that locked into our current situations, that we couldn't possibly think of anything to aspire to?
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Old 01-05-2014, 08:46 AM   #90
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I think ClifP more means the kind of rich that when you are siting at your 25th college reunion table with your still attractive wife, some former classmate comes in with someone who looks like an 18 year old Penelope Cruz, and you think, that b*stad has lapped me 1000 times!

Ha
This type of thinking is becoming more prevalent in your recent posts? Late life crises?
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Old 01-05-2014, 08:50 AM   #91
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But, I think the OP raises a good question. If the risk wasn't any more why wouldn't you go for it once retired? Why stop playing the "game"? Are we really that locked into our current situations, that we couldn't possibly think of anything to aspire to?
Because many are not convinced that an aggressive strategy is the prudent way to go for our remaining years. Just because history favors that way of thinking, who really knows if that will work going forward? No one knows how long they will live or what the future may bring.

Call me a tinfoil hat type. I probably am. But I am not suited for an aggressive style no matter what the almighty firecalc says.
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Old 01-05-2014, 08:58 AM   #92
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Yes, you wouldn't expect a lot of talk about being rich on an early retirement site. Way more discussion about LBYM (eg dryer sheets). Also, I think there is a rational tendency for people to convince themselves that they are satisfied with what they have and really wouldn't know what to spend extra money on. To think otherwise calls into question their decision to ER and could introduce a level of regret into their thinking which wouldn't be good.
I agree, that is true for many here. But it seems to me that there are also a significant number of people on the board who actually ARE satisfied with what they have, and who, because of that, do not necessarily see much urgent need to spend every last dollar that their portfolio size could possibly accommodate.

Despite Madison Avenue's exhortations, one might hope that there is more to life than spending every waking hour engaged in consumerism.
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:09 AM   #93
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Despite Madison Avenue's exhortations, one might hope that there is more to life than spending every waking hour engaged in consumerism.
And that's it, really. It's about one's core values and what is important to that person.

As I mentioned to DW the other day we have something that many people, no matter how much money they have, will never have: Enough.
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:19 AM   #94
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I thought the OP is funny.
1. Although most will not accept it, how does he know that, some of the posters here,already have 5 million to start, and are just cruising lightly.
2. 5M at 85 may not be that pleasant as most of your family and friends including that young companion, may want you dead, so she can have a young lover and all your money.
3. Send grandkids to Harvard?- That's the responsibility of my kids, not mine.
4. Speculation: the market may go down bad, that 5 M may not be there at that time. Remember, risk and volatility is inherent in the market.
5. 100% equity allocation may bring unbearable stress to some, it is not worth it.
6. Definition of rich may vary widely whoever you ask!
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:20 AM   #95
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And that's it, really. It's about one's core values and what is important to that person.

As I mentioned to DW the other day we have something that many people, no matter how much money they have, will never have: Enough.
Doesn't have to be consumerism. Charities? Bequests? Surely there would be any number of things you could do that wouldn't be considered consumerism? As well, you would think there might be some middle ground that wouldn't include "every waking moment" in a mindless quest to satisfy "Madison Ave"
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:26 AM   #96
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Also, I think there is a rational tendency for people to convince themselves that they are satisfied with what they have and really wouldn't know what to spend extra money on.
(emphasis mine)
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Doesn't have to be consumerism. Charities? Bequests? Surely there would be any number of things you could do that wouldn't be considered consumerism? As well, you would think there might be some middle ground that wouldn't include "every waking moment" in a mindless quest to satisfy "Madison Ave"
Setting up a charitable foundation can be very time consuming as well, from what I understand. I think I read somewhere that it has been almost a full time job for Bill and Melinda Gates. Even on a smaller scale, one has to put some work into it if one does not intend to throw one's money away, that is, if one wants to go beyond buying Girl Scout Cookies, sending a few hundred/thousand to United Way or some such thing. So, whether spending a large amount of money and time on shopping, or on unusually extensive (and theoretically laudably selfless) charitable contributions or bequests, one wonders if there is not more to life?

Some people just feel they have "enough", as Walt34 so nicely puts it - - I know that for some others that seems like an impossibility.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:30 AM   #97
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Yes, you wouldn't expect a lot of talk about being rich on an early retirement site. Way more discussion about LBYM (eg dryer sheets). Also, I think there is a rational tendency for people to convince themselves that they are satisfied with what they have and really wouldn't know what to spend extra money on. To think otherwise calls into question their decision to ER and could introduce a level of regret into their thinking which wouldn't be good.
That was one thought that kept ringing in my head as I read through this thread. Nicely expressed.

The other thought had to do with the premise that just because FIRECalc said it, it was true.

I strongly suspect that the premise that one could drastically change asset allocation and get the same downside result would not be true if other countrys' markets were modeled. I'm not even talking Argentina. What about Japan? There's a lot of years ahead, and although it might be hard to imagine based on what we've seen in our lifetimes (US dominance), there's no guarantee that FIRECalc has a "bad enough" model. I think the chances of the future being worse than the worst model are very small, but not zero, and that would make a difference to the original premise.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:22 AM   #98
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.. I think there is a rational tendency for people to convince themselves that they are satisfied with what they have and really wouldn't know what to spend extra money on.
If one is convinced that he/she has enough based on expected living expenses (that include travel, medical, emergency, etc), what are some of the compelling reasons to change that perspective?

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If the risk wasn't any more why wouldn't you go for it once retired?
same risk -> higher return? Slightly higher risk may produce a slightly higher return in the long term.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:23 AM   #99
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How much is enough? There are some good resources just on Netflix. There is a documentary called Happy and a Ted Talk called the Happy Secret to Better Work, which isn't so much as about work but just some key things to do to be happy.

I feel like I have decades of Madison Avenue's advertising to unlearn American consumerism habits, and these happiness studies are pointing more in the true direction of what really makes people happy. Free time to pursue hobbies, social connections, being outside, having worthy goals, etc. My husband gets this more than me. I am trying to see the world more from his point of view.

Also I really like watching House Hunters International. We just sit back and think, wow, we can afford this or this or that or maybe this and a vacation home there. What a cool life. Maybe we can't afford to buy a downtown Paris apartment, but we can afford the apartments in the South of France and it is sunnier there anyway and near the ocean. I like the idea of moving to or at least some slow travel to places without any big box stores. We visited friends almost two hours away last week, and the tract houses and shopping centers all looked the same.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:51 AM   #100
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. I like the idea of moving to or at least some slow travel to places without any big box stores. We visited friends almost two hours away last week, and the tract houses and shopping centers all looked the same.
Just move downtown in almost any thriving, big US city. I don't even know where the nearest "big box" store is. A shopping center to me is a 7-11 a couple streets over, gas, milk, beer, and lottery tickets-most of life's needs. They also have very handy Amazon drop boxes for those of us without concierges to receive packages when we are away.

Another annoyance you can lose is your car. I've been car-less for 18 months now, and although GF does have one, when we are together we mostly use public trans of one type or another.

Shortly before New Years my GF and I wanted to see a movie. Bus ride downtown, stop into an oyster bar, chat with other patrons and the very friendly bartender while our oysters are being shucked then have a couple martinis and a mess of oysters before walking a block to the movie (Philomena, highly recommended). Afterward, walk around and enjoy the nice Christmas decorations in town and stop off for an excellent espresso in a real cup, not some waxed paper abomination.

The life you want is literally a very short distance away, and as a bonus you get to have real conversations with the other people there. I am sure the same might be found abroad, but no one understands the life around him or her better than the thoughtful and observant native.

Ha
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