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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-12-2006, 02:05 PM   #61
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Re: Doom and Gloom

I did a quick google on cofire generation and found that there is a lot of information supporting alphabet soup's statements about the technology. It does appear to reduce CO2, SO2 and NOx emmissions. It's hard to confirm that Cheny is directly responsible for the inadequate funding required to make it a reality. But it's not hard for me to believe that Cheny would be less than supportive of this. He is an oil man and hardly seems altruistic. Here are just a few links I looked at:

http://www.bioproducts-bioenergy.gov...PGCofiring.pdf
(see page 14 and 15 of the presentation)
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/te...for_energy.pdf

"Cofiring
Cofiring refers to the practice of introducing biomass as a supplementary energy source in coal plants. It is a near-term, low-cost option for using woody residue, costing approximately $0.02 per kWh while reducing pollutants. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, 20 electric utilities are cofiring biomass with coal. Extensive demon-strations and trials have shown that effective substitutions of biomass energy can be made from 10% to 15% of the total energy input. Investments are expected to be $100 to $700 per kW of biomass capacity, with the average ranging from $180 to $200 per kW. Cofiring results in a net reduction in greenhouse gases and lower emissions of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides."

http://www.fwc.com/publications/heat...coal_fired.pdf

“Cofiring biomass (i.e. wood waste) with coal is proving to be the lowest cost method for generating ‘green power’ in utility plant demonstrations,” said David Tillman, who manages the FWDC-EPRI contract and has authored several papers on the subject for the Global New Products Group of Foster Wheeler Development Corporation. “It also reduces the emissions of fossilbased CO2. From a community service point-of-view, cofiring can provide an end use for low value or negative value products. These might include sawdust or other fine wood wastes produced by furniture mills, sawmills, and related industries in a generating plant’s locale.”

http://www.et.byu.edu:8080/~larryb/Cofire.htm
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-12-2006, 06:39 PM   #62
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Re: Doom and Gloom

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Cofiring is an environmentally friendly application of mixing biomass with coal to reduce harmful greenhouse gases.
Yes, that is what it is and could also mean burning with refuse derived fuel (rdf) , but companies arent doing this to reduce greenhouse gases although, some may use it as PR. They are doing it because there is a cheap available source of fuel nearby (i.e. the upper midwest has numerous wood product industries) where it is encouraged to use wood wastes since they are renewable and cheap (that has been going on for years). Are you suggesting that Dick Cheney and his merry elves should go beyond the wood wastes available and start chopping down more trees?
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-12-2006, 08:14 PM   #63
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Re: Doom and Gloom

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Originally Posted by maddythebeagle
Yes, that is what it is and could also mean burning with refuse derived fuel (rdf) , but companies arent doing this to reduce greenhouse gases although, some may use it as PR. They are doing it because there is a cheap available source of fuel nearby (i.e. the upper midwest has numerous wood product industries) where it is encouraged to use wood wastes since they are renewable and cheap (that has been going on for years). Are you suggesting that Dick Cheney and his merry elves should go beyond the wood wastes available and start chopping down more trees?

Environmentally friendly application would, by definition, preclude the further decimation of the nation's forests. It's quite obvious, unless you're from Texas.
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-12-2006, 09:45 PM   #64
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Re: Doom and Gloom

HaHa,

Huh?

setab
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-13-2006, 12:09 AM   #65
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Re: Doom and Gloom

I've heard Cheny has personally decided to promote several Companies that are involved in Cofire technology. Word is he has contacted CEOs of several of those companies and invited them to go hunting with him.
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-13-2006, 09:43 AM   #66
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Re: Doom and Gloom

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Originally Posted by maddythebeagle
Are you suggesting that Dick Cheney and his merry elves should go beyond the wood wastes available and start chopping down more trees?
I wonder what caliber of firearm is used for that?
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-13-2006, 10:36 AM   #67
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Re: Doom and Gloom

The .88 magnum. It shoots through schools.
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2006, 04:39 PM   #68
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Re: Doom and Gloom

Although davew894 deleted all the posts where he made reference to it, he repeatedly posted about the superior productivity of French workers vs. US workers. Dave also complained about the number of holidays and vacation days Europeans have vs. what we have in the US. I saw this Newsweek article today and had to smile, wondering if dave was going to see it:

The Decline and Fall of Europe

By Fareed Zakaria, Newsweek

...The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, headquartered in Paris, released a report, Going for Growth, that details economic prospects in the industrial world. It is 160 pages long and written in bland, cautious, scholarly prose. But the conclusion is clear—Europe is in deep trouble. These days we all talk about the rise of Asia and the challenge to America, but it might well turn out that the most consequential trend of the next decade will be the economic decline of Europe.

It's often noted that the European Union has a combined gross domestic product that is approximately the same as that of the United States. But the EU has 170 million more people. Its per capita GDP is 25 percent lower than that of the U.S. and, most important, that gap has been widening for 15 years. If present trends continue, the chief economist at the OECD argues, in 20 years the average U.S. citizen will be twice as rich as the average Frenchman or German. (Britain is an exception on most of these measures, lying somewhere between Continental Europe and the U.S.)

People have argued that Europeans simply value leisure more and, as a result, are poorer but have a better quality of life. That's fine if you're taking a 10 percent pay cut and choosing to have longer lunches and vacations. But if you're only half as well off as the U.S., that will translate into poorer health care and education, diminished access to all kinds of goods and services, and a lower quality of life.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3704623/site/newsweek/
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2006, 05:14 PM   #69
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Re: Doom and Gloom

REW, on the nose. There is no such thing as a free lunch. I read that, somewhere.
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2006, 05:32 PM   #70
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Re: Doom and Gloom

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Originally Posted by Eagle43
There is no such thing as a free lunch.* I read that, somewhere.*
The origins of the "no free lunch" phrase is kinda cool- the book "Economics 101 1/2" has an account of how the "no free lunch" came to be.
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2006, 06:07 PM   #71
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Re: Doom and Gloom

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
It's often noted that the European Union has a combined gross domestic product that is approximately the same as that of the United States. But the EU has 170 million more people. Its per capita GDP is 25 percent lower than that of the U.S. and, most important, that gap has been widening for 15 years. If present trends continue, the chief economist at the OECD argues, in 20 years the average U.S. citizen will be twice as rich as the average Frenchman or German. (Britain is an exception on most of these measures, lying somewhere between Continental Europe and the U.S.)

People have argued that Europeans simply value leisure more and, as a result, are poorer but have a better quality of life. That's fine if you're taking a 10 percent pay cut and choosing to have longer lunches and vacations. But if you're only half as well off as the U.S., that will translate into poorer health care and education, diminished access to all kinds of goods and services, and a lower quality of life.
Many interesting and perhaps valid points in this article. But certainly as to the "poorer health care and education", we really are not seeing any problem with Europe currently being at a 25% disadvantage. There probably is not one European economy that doesn't provide its inhabitants with a longer life expectancy at birth and at age 60 than the USA. We certainly do spend more, but we don't get more. And before we get prideful about American critical care, triple and quadruple bypasses and al that great stuff- reflect on the fact that a 60 year old Mexican man has a longer life expectancy than his US counterpart. Sure, we expect this from Norway, Holland, Switzerland, Germany, France, Italy…. But Mexico?

Same with education. We spend more, but do our graduates in the normal course of primary and secondary schooling learn math, science, a foreign language or 2 or 3, or even their own language of English? As we all know, if there exists a public school in the US able to bring say 75% of its graduates to this level of achievement it will be at the very top of our national heap. Yet any Scandinavian student is expected to and usually does accomplish this.

Last point- if our economy is so superior, why do we have a gargantuan balance of payments deficit? Germany doesn’t. We may be alone in the world as a mature economy running on the savings of* various developing economies in Asia.

Ha
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2006, 06:24 PM   #72
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Re: Doom and Gloom

<<<<uff- reflect on the fact that a 60 year old Mexican man has a longer life expectancy than his US counterpart. Sure, we expect this from Norway, Holland, Switzerland, Germany, France, Italy…. But Mexico?>>>>

The 60 year old Mexican ought to jump for joy at having made it to 60 given the incredible infant mortality rate in Mexico.* Looks like they are moving backwards though, everything I've read shows life expectancy at birth is behind the USA
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2006, 08:29 PM   #73
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Re: Doom and Gloom

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Originally Posted by Marshac
The origins of the "no free lunch" phrase is kinda cool- the book "Economics 101 1/2" has an account of how the "no free lunch" came to be.
Man, I thought that was Robert Heinlein in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"...
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2006, 09:38 PM   #74
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Re: Doom and Gloom

I don't necessarily buy this,

Quote:
People have argued that Europeans simply value leisure more and, as a result, are poorer but have a better quality of life. That's fine if you're taking a 10 percent pay cut and choosing to have longer lunches and vacations. But if you're only half as well off as the U.S., that will translate into poorer health care and education, diminished access to all kinds of goods and services, and a lower quality of life.
Twice as rich may mean that have a $40k car rather than a $20k car, a 3000 sq ft house rather than a 1500 sq. ft. house and 10 suits in the closet rather than five. Does that mean that you are twice as well off?

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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2006, 11:05 PM   #75
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Re: Doom and Gloom

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Does that mean that you are twice as well off?
Depends on whether that lifestyle also includes twice the mortgage & consumer debt...
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Re: Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2006, 11:24 PM   #76
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Re: Doom and Gloom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delawaredave
I recently read "The Coming Generational Storm" - really scary forecasts about the proportion of older/retired folks growing and their (our !) associated social security / retirement / medical balloning costs.

To meet these costs, the required tax increases on the smaller pool of workers is staggering.* The* impact* of trade / debt inbalances might tank the dollar.

But maybe there's always "gloom and doom" on the horizon - World Wars, plagues, etc.
Getting back on-topic for a moment, here's a differing opinion: "Greenback is still golden"
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