Early Retirement TOO Extreme? Jacob Fisker unRetires

[jacob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky His new theme will be how I achieve FI again in a different way. That is, retiring in comfort by working as a quantitative analyst/trader for just after a few years. Living under a shoestring will be a distant memory.

No it won't.

To use a metaphor, you're comparing an efficient swimmer to a bad swimmer who's splashing around in the water. Both need to cover the same distance but they need different amounts of effort to accomplish this. I can get as far on a "shoestring" as others can using much more. I see no reason to reduce my efficiency. If anything my goal would be to get more efficient and depend even less on buying stuff.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob If anything my goal would be to get more efficient and depend even less on buying stuff.

Given your new circumstances, does everyone in your household have the same goal?

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob If anything my goal would be to get more efficient and depend even less on buying stuff.

I do not know you, but from reading your forum, I tend to think your basic nature will not change. Well, not too much anyway.

Still, if you have more funds, wouldn't you want to acquire some life experiences that you are not able to now? Such as sailing to Tahiti, climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, get a tough 4x4 RV to go trekking around Alaska? Just making this up, to serve as examples...

I don't know what would tickle your fancy, but didn't you say you are getting bored? And the common fix for boredom is to go out to do "stuff", for which the money will come in really handy.

[unclemick]

To repeat - stay curious and have fun.

I had an old buddy ole pal(Sam retired Air Force) for 20 yrs in the Space Program whose favorite saying was: this job is so great if they didn't pay me I'd have to buy a ticket.

heh heh heh - you can check in once in a while.

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclemick I had an old buddy ole pal(Sam retired Air Force) for 20 yrs in the Space Program whose favorite saying was: this job is so great if they didn't pay me I'd have to buy a ticket.

Well, at a former megacorp, a manager said something like the above, but he meant something entirely different.

He said "this place is so crazy and f***** up that I did not work here, I would buy a ticket to come watch". He was near retirement, and could not care less when he said that. I was younger and so frustrated by the megacorp, same as what Dilbert's going through everyday, that I could not appreciate his humor.

[jacob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound Still, if you have more funds, wouldn't you want to acquire some life experiences that you are not able to now? Such as sailing to Tahiti, climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, get a tough 4x4 RV to go trekking around Alaska? Just making this up, to serve as examples...

I guess those are cool, but ...

How about working on "Wall Street"? Or building furniture good enough to get commissioned? Or selling 10,000 books? Or getting published in a professional journal? Or getting a PhD? Or flying rescue missions? Or designing airplanes or new economies?

Can I buy those? ;-)

I'd much rather want those ones/examples. But they're not for sale. They have to be earned.

That's the difference!

There's a inexpensive option for all the things that can be bought that's almost equivalent to the expensive option. You can sail to Tahiti for free as crew without the headaches of boat ownership or chartering for that matter. I've "climbed" Mt Fuji (I put it in quotes because it's really just a matter of walking uphill for five hours) when I went for a conference. If I had to go trekking I'd do it on a touring bicycle to get a better sense of the distance. I know those are just examples, but if you substitute in creativity/skills/etc. almost everything has a high cost option that is "convenient, comfortable, and depends on others" and a low cost option that is "competent, challenging, and depends on yourself".

Like for cruising, if you go to the Caribbean, there are boats sailing there that charters for $8,000 for a month for people flying in on vacation and then fly back two weeks later. And then there are people in the next boat over who live in the Caribbean all year long for the same amount. They have the same view of the sunset but they have different levels of controls and different levels of skills and spend different amounts of money. Or you have people who spend $200,000 on a boat full of electronics but don't know how to fix it---they have parts airlifted in from other continents whenever some gadget breaks; then they don't know how to install it, and then they pay the guy who owns and runs his own boat and spends very little because he knows so much to install it for him. It's like the people who buy sailboats and then motor around because they don't know how to sail. I don't want to be "those guys"

Like, there are two groups of people ... you can tell them apart when something breaks

1) They call someone to come and fix it for them.
2) They fix it themselves.

or when they need to get something

1) They buy it from someone else.
2) They build it themselves.

The mindsets of these two are very different and probably depends on temperament. The first one requires money in order to do things and with more money, he/she can do more. The latter has little use for money. To him/her it's about [exercising] skill, and you can't buy skill with money.

(For sure, if you could buy skill and competence with money, like grafting a chip onto the brain, I'd be all over it and spend as much as I can. But all that one can currently get with money are "things" and "spectacles"---neither are very interesting to me.)

As for the rest of the family, given our budget you can well imagine that together we're highly skilled and nearly self-sufficient. The only things we spend money on are rent, health insurance, and some food. Anything else comprise amounts which are negligible. If DW wants a table, I'll build it. If I want a fisherman's sweater, she'll knit it. Sure materials cost something, but the wool yarn for a sweater is much less than its $400 retail value. Ditto for the table.

Compare: "I bought this cable knitted sweater for $400" to "My wife made this cable knitted sweater". The latter is more impressive/interesting/fun/... and this is what I'm aiming at.

[W2R]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob Sure materials cost something, but the wool yarn for a sweater is much less than its $400 retail value.

$400? (fanning self) My favorite sweater cost $2 on sale at Old Navy. It has lasted me 5 years, and will probably last another 10 at least. I have never even seen a sweater priced at $400 but I'll take your word on that.

The cost of living is supposed to be a lot higher your area than here, so maybe explains the difference.

Jacob, my warmest and most friendly wishes to you and your DW for your happiness and success in your new adventures.

[NW-Bound]

Heck, many of the things you said were challenging, but sound too much like work! To each his own, but for work, I already found my niche and my skill sets bring me plenty of good work and money. I am not looking for a different line of work.

I am a DIY guy more than most people I know (but I will not make my own rake ;-), but I have my limits. More and more, I feel like my time is running out, and I am willing to spend the money to "grease" my way to obtain the more pleasant life experiences. For example, I still maintain all my vehicles, and do most of the repairs, but I am too old to rebuild engines like I had to do in my youth.

I used to be very interested in the more abstract fields of mathematics, but why would I want to go back to school for that? I can read and learn on my own, if I find myself still interested. Why would I care to get more degrees? To show off?

About knowing one's limits, for example, I have read a blog of an RV'er who drove to the end of the Dempster highway in her RV. Alone! Now, many people do not dare take that trip, and she did. But what was more impressive was that she encountered a lone bicyclist on that road. Good lord!

But you are right! One can choose different challenges to tackle, and many do not cost any money.

[ChadR]

There is a serious over abundance of complainypants in this thread!!!

Jacob has already defended himself so I don't feel the need to rebut anything. However, I'm sincerely surprised at the snarky complainypants tone I read from some comments. Maybe I'm reading something that isn't there but I've read several posts on here from folks who have chosen to go back to work for reason other than financial necessity and usually those people receive generally positive comments even if folks think work is the devil.

[W2R]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChadR There is a serious over abundance of complainypants in this thread!!! Jacob has already defended himself so I don't feel the need to rebut anything. However, I'm sincerely surprised at the snarky complainypants tone I read from some comments. Maybe I'm reading something that isn't there but I've read several posts on here from folks who have chosen to go back to work for reason other than financial necessity and usually those people receive generally positive comments even if folks think work is the devil.

(emphasis mine)
Maybe you are? Jacob is well known and well liked here, and so his unexpected announcement resulted in a lot of questions and confusion. I haven't noticed any "complainypants" comments and can't imagine what they could possibly be complaining about. Your complaint about other non-specific comments is pretty perplexing.

If you or anyone else thinks any of the comments are insulting or detract from the general tone of harmony on the board, to the point of violating our Community Rules, please report them to the moderator team using the icon at the lower left of the post in question.

[NW-Bound]

I happen to be one of the lucky ones who did not, and do not, hate their jobs.

I only hated the people I worked with, and the environment I was in.

So, when I said some challenging activities mentioned by Jacob were too much like work, I meant the potential negative aspects of them, not the endeavors themselves.

Take for example publishing in one's technical field. I have done a bit of that. In fact, I was even asked to serve as a reviewer for a peer-reviewed international journal, because I was considered an expert in my field. I stopped after a couple of years, because while there were some truly nice papers that I enjoyed reviewing as I indeed learned something from them, I hated having to shoot down some papers that were no good.

And then, there was this particular foreign university professor who got mightily upset when I pointed out that he had published several papers on that narrow subject, and only changed things a bit to resubmit to different journals. He did not know me as one of the reviewers, because reviewers were anonymous. The journal editor, being a close friend, however let me know all this, and said that the author thought I was yet another anonymous reviewer who had rejected one of his papers earlier. So, the editor had to convince the author that there were two different reviewers who did not like his papers. The author thought that there was only one negative reviewer, who had a vendetta against him. It sounded like the author would kill me if he could!

I guess it was like being moderators of an Internet forum :-)

So, while I still liked to do technical writing, I did not bother to write papers for publication any more. Writing engineering project reports or proposals was different. It was bragging time for my most excellent work (in my humble opinion:-), and usually brought in more good work and money.

And speak about money, I consider myself fairly frugal, and am seriously considering loosening up. For I have ran across the following quote.

"Whoever said money can’t buy happiness didn’t know where to shop." -- Gertrude Stein

Of course it's tongue-in-cheek and I do not believe it, but it made me think.

And here's another one.

“Money can’t buy happiness; it can, however, rent it.” -- Anonymous

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by arebelspy The poster you quote was saying JD Roth at Get Rich Slowly sold his blog (though he continues to blog there), not Jacob at ERE. He was saying part of the reason JD can now travel is that he sold his blog and only works as a writer there now, not owner running everything.

I know about JD selling to Quinstreet but I got the impression that our vaporizing poster was referring to ERE. I guess I'll never be able to check what I was reading, though, will I?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob I agree. That was a large part of what motivated me to write. Now, start thinking about what you're going to do once you've shared everything you know and it's all out there in the form of a thousand or however many blog posts and a book. Do you keep repeating yourself? Do you deal well with repetitive tasks? I don't. Others do.

Gotta admit, Jacob, I feel a little sorry for you if that's the logic you're using on yourself. You seem to feel that you've thoroughly explored the topic and you're done. You're putting it up on the shelf and moving on.

Meanwhile I've put up over 23,000 posts here (admittedly of varying quality), written a book, written almost 200 blog posts, and started on the second edition. It's been over seven years and I still feel as though I'm just getting started. Every day here a poster manages to find a new freakin' way to get started on the road to ER. Many of them also find a way to screw it up, which helps us figure out what else not to do.

Apparently I do handle repetitive tasks, but without repeating myself word-for-word. I can find something fresh about the subject, or approach it from a new angle, or (worst case) analyze someone else's lessons learned (whether the lessons were new or not).

Your writing strikes me as being a fairly "old soul" for your chronological age. However you also may have a trend of performing a certain occupation to a certain point and then dropping it in favor of starting something new. I'm at a point in my life where I'm trying to master activities that I'll need to last me the rest of my life. I doubt I'll be sparring taekwondo in my 70s but my reflexes & proprioception will be much better than the average 70s guy. I doubt I'll be surfing the Triple Crown, either, but I'll be the studliest geezer in the lineup. Heaven help me, I'll be replacing toilets and fixing leaky faucets. And I suspect that I'll still be writing about ER and the lessons we've learned from the Great Recession.

You know you'll never completely plumb the depths of kendo or sailing. I'm not sure why you feel you're tapped out on ERE.

Your experiences are (and will be) different than mine. However I've watched my spouse go from an organization's volunteer to its paid employee. The paycheck was for 10 hours/week, and she felt pressured to take it because otherwise the non-profit wouldn't pay the other people in that position. We pay the taxes on it and donate the rest to charity (which tends to make the taxes a wash anyway).

When she was a volunteer she was a shining star. As soon as she signed up for that paycheck, however, the non-profit's HQ started treating her like a wage slave. "We need your time card." "We need your W-4." "We need you to sign these 401(k) forms." "We need you to fill out this database". "We need you to phone in for this training conference call..." and on & on. It was no longer "Thanks!" but rather "Now go do this." Oddly enough none of the things they "need" have anything to do with what she does for the non-profit's beneficiaries. When she was a volunteer, she could ignore the petty admin and HQ had to put up with it. As a paid employee there's an implicit quid pro quo which both sides feel obligated to honor. Luckily she's learning to ignore the petty admin all over again, but she had to overcome several decades of serious psychological conditioning.

So I hope things work out for you when your employer discovers that their plans & goals differ from your objectives. I hope the honeymoon never ends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob Also, what will happen if the blog becomes big is that the "douchebag"-count, which measures personal attacks/libel/people posting wrong presumptions about you as if they were facts/etc., increases from an average of 1/year to 1/day or 1/hour on some days. Will it still be fun to run a blog? How thick is one's skin? How thick is the skin of friends and family? There's a big difference between a small blog and a big blog. I'd say "year 2" or 20000 visitors/month of blogging was the best time: You're big enough to attract the positive people but not too big to attract the negative people.

Throw me in that big-time briar patch. Moderating a blog is one-tenth the hassle of moderating a discussion board. I hope I get to check that ratio for myself at a much larger scale.

I admit that 20 years of Navy nuclear power have left us submariners with epidermis layers that are envied by elephants and rhinos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob To answer your other question, I still own all the rights to everything: The blog is mine and the book is mine. That's not to say that I'll guarantee that I'm immune to selling those rights, but the price would be severe. I'll keep recycling posts on the blog. Some prefer a daily dose instead of just reading all the archives. The reposter works for this purpose. Frankly I'm surprised that more bloggers aren't using it if they're writing timeless material anyway.

OK, thanks.

I suspect bloggers avoid reposters out of fear that Google will dump their rankings or that their audience will decamp. I have to admit that I check the date of your posts before I read them, and if they're from 2008/2009 then they get skimmed a lot faster than your recent posts... especially if you're using phrases like "current values" or "the latest economic news"

Most bloggers might have blogged for current events, too, which would be rendered stale in a few months. It takes thoughtful consideration to write with analogies & examples that age well. I'll have to take a look at designing a "classic Nords" archive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pimpmyretirement Pursuit of most skills at the highest levels requires becoming a professional in that field. You pay dues through work, but in return get access to experienced peers, mentors and their resources. The end result is performance that far exceeds all but the most exceptional hobbyists. Imagine if I developed an interest in submarines and tried to be an expert submariner without learning through the Navy or a major defense contractor. I bet my skill set, even with years of study, would be laughable. I'm a smart guy, but still young and short on life experience. Maybe I'll come around to your perspective as I learn more about the world.

You're right, if you wanted to learn about submarines then you'd train with the best! That's how Japan and Republic of Korea developed their submarine forces-- they sent their crews through U.S. trainers and exercises.

I think the difference is the paycheck. Like UncleMick says, if you're donating your paycheck to charity then you truly love your work. And if you choose to go back to work but you also choose to keep the paychecks, then you open yourself to accusations of hypocrisy.

"I'm FI and ER'd, but I want to pursue a new skill to its highest level by seeking paid employment." Well, sure, buddy, but how do you convince your audience that you're still FI and ER'd? Where's your credibility? Copies of your tax returns? Signing over your paychecks to the Gates Foundation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreBonds But when someone sets out for such a hallmark standout goal of retiring in their early 30s, and makes a point of doing it on such a shoestring budget, then 'returns to work out of boredom', it would be like someone training for a marathon, then running the race's first 2 miles at a 4:25/mile pace, and then quitting because they were so far ahead of the pack that "it wasn't worth the challenge of continuing". In all probability, they wouldn't have been able to continue that 4:25/mile pace for the rest of the 24.2 miles... I'm all for people taking on challenges, and continuing to work to build buffers to add to their stash to minimize the chance they'll ever have to return to work once they reach FI - but I'm not quite sold on trying to make a name for yourself precisely because of an "early retirement extreme" concept...then hitting the reboot button because of 'boredom'. If he had retired with a portfolio of several million, kept withdrawals to under 3%, had amazing traveling/social experiences and still chose to return to work for the 'challenge', I might be a little more convinced than someone who lived on half of a shoestring budget and was trying to woo a significant other....

This is much more elegantly (and tactfully) stated than my previous comment. And, again, it gets to the core of the issues surrounding the paycheck.

[Golden Mean]

Quote:

Originally Posted by W2R (emphasis mine) Maybe you are? Jacob is well known and well liked here, and so his unexpected announcement resulted in a lot of questions and confusion. I haven't noticed any "complainypants" comments and can't imagine what they could possibly be complaining about. Your complaint about other non-specific comments is pretty perplexing. If you or anyone else thinks any of the comments are insulting or detract from the general tone of harmony on the board, to the point of violating our Community Rules, please report them to the moderator team using the icon at the lower left of the post in question.

While I don't think there is anything approaching a rules violation, I do get an overall negative feeling from the flow of this thread. I mean, the title itself is a bit snarky, no? Makes it sound like Jacob ran out of cash and was forced back to work in failure. As far as I can tell that's 180 from the reality of the situation.

I wish Jacob good luck and hope a good story comes out of this next chapter in his life. I have to warn him though, I grew up near Chicago and it gets cold there. Like frozen water in the sky cold.

GM

[dixonge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Millionaire Mommy, Alice Schroeder, John Greaney, Jane Gross, and a host of others. If you're not gonna blog then at least have the guts to blog that you're not gonna blog.

Wow, the Millionaire Mommy just totally fell off the face of the planet! Twitter locked down, nothing on the blog for 15 months. No announcement or notice.

The other three seem to be current though...

[arebelspy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I know about JD selling to Quinstreet but I got the impression that our vaporizing poster was referring to ERE. I guess I'll never be able to check what I was reading, though, will I? Mods, were you planning to share with us what happened to that guy's post that I quoted? I can understand privately banning posters (although I disagree with the policy) but I don't understand what the heck happened here. Frankly I was also hoping to engage him in further dialogue, but it seems kinda difficult to contact him now.

No, he was talking about GRS, not ERE. He posted after my post which you quoted confirming my interpretation was correct, but that post too went poof.

That guy was pimping his blog all over the place, and some links were redacted by mods, but not sure if that was the issue that caused the ban and post selections.

[arebelspy]

And FWIW Chad and Golden, I second W2R's comment of Jacob being liked and respected. Please assume the best of posters here and assume any minor rude questioning is from surprise and genuine interest, not snarkiness and complainypantsness.

[jacob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreBonds Not trying to start/add to the flames rumbling underneath the surface, but I wonder if the ERE website shouldn't instead be more described as "ESL" (Extremely Simple Living)?

It should have been called "SELF-SUFFICIENCY DIY ETHICS PERSONAL FREEDOM LOW ENVIRONMENTAL FOOTPRINT AND FINANCIAL INDEPENDENCE" dot com or something. The word retirement has so many unfortunate connotations depending on who's using it. Very many can not see past their own definition. It's my theory that the definition of retirement is generationally dependent---that is, how old one is/or think. Unfortunately, when I started the blog 4 years ago I never had any idea that one word would turn into such a big issue. If I had to start another blog today I'd title it something meaningless ... like penguinmuglock ... to avoid this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreBonds But when someone sets out for such a hallmark standout goal of retiring in their early 30s, and makes a point of doing it on such a shoestring budget, then 'returns to work out of boredom', it would be like someone training for a marathon, then running the race's first 2 miles at a 4:25/mile pace, and then quitting because they were so far ahead of the pack that "it wasn't worth the challenge of continuing". In all probability, they wouldn't have been able to continue that 4:25/mile pace for the rest of the 24.2 miles...

Well, first of all ... I never intended to be a figurehead in any way ...

And I'd say it's more like someone who trains, completes and wins a big marathon, say the Boston one. Where's the challenge after that? Sure, one could do the same thing all over again and win it again next year. This, however, is a different challenge. Winning it the first time shows that it's possible to win it. Winning it the second time just shows that one is capable of repeating oneself. Winning the first time allows for personal growth/many insights. Winning it the second time ... is far from the same.
Or okay, say you win it the second year as well. Do you want to repeat the drill the third year?

It seems to me more like you're suggesting that because I won it once, I should keep competing in that same marathon for the rest of my life? Where's the challenge in that? Maybe that's enough for some, but I found it's not for me.

So look, the temperament (typical participant) of the E-R board and the temperament of the ERE are different. Just like the temperament is different on bogleheads (who largely don't understand frugality) or simpleliving (who largely don't like investing) or permaculture (who focus on natural assets), etc. And this means people have problems understanding each others motivations. Yes, I realize I'm hugely generalizing the various forums here, but I've also seen enough "statistics" to have a good idea of where people are coming from.

One of the reasons I started the ERE board was because some people didn't feel they quite fit in over here on E-R and told me so. Nobody on E-R quite understood the different motivations over on ERE. I resisted setting up the ERE boards for a while (why duplicate the effort) but eventually gave in.

I really do suspect it's generational. E-R are mainly baby boomers who see retirement as a big long party of traveling and having fun following some, hopefully, meaningful career. Your reason for E-R is to make that party last longer.

ERE is predominantly Gen-X oriented. It's not about [your kind of] retirement as much as it's financial independence: the freedom from having to put up with career b.s. and find work or something else that interests us. These goals and life orientations are QUITE different. "Partying", that is, traveling, keeping in shape, or experiencing stuff is just not satisfying enough. There's no "contribution" in those activities.

Finally, there's a need to separate the message from the messenger. (This is a good part of the reason why I'm pulling back from this.) The math is what the math is. My SWR is 2.22% and even enormously rising health costs are not going to destroy that. My going back to work does not increase my SWR and 2.22% is very low ... even for 60+ years of withdrawals. I think many on E-R are just fine with SWRs of 3% or even 4%.

Also, I'm not the only one doing this. Also, the math proves it works. It would not be a very intelligent use of my time to demonstrate the proof of concept in time. It would be like running 2 miles per day for 50 days and making the claim that if I keep doing that for another 50 days, I'll have run 200 miles total. Stopping after 50 days does not disprove that someone who had continued wouldn't have gotten to 200 miles in 100 days. I mean, go ahead, you know my SWR, you know my budget, you can then derive my networth. Go plug that into firecalc under some extremely conservative assumption. I'm using the same tools as you guys.

Some think I'm tired of not spending money. I don't know what more I can possibly say to refute this. The way we live is a different lifestyle. It's not some sacrificing/reduced version of the consumerist/materialist lifestyle. (This is the point E-R and ERE often misunderstand each other, I think).

When I go back to work, we'll have to move. We'll sell the RV and move into an apartment. I expect our rent to go up by $100-300 total. Conversely, RV insurance and maintenance will go away. We'll be driving less (or not at all) since we'll be inside the city instead of outside. Since we're moving east, CPI will go down and food will be cheaper. Overall, I expect to stay under $600/month.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Mean While I don't think there is anything approaching a rules violation, I do get an overall negative feeling from the flow of this thread. I mean, the title itself is a bit snarky, no? Makes it sound like Jacob ran out of cash and was forced back to work in failure. As far as I can tell that's 180 from the reality of the situation. I wish Jacob good luck and hope a good story comes out of this next chapter in his life. I have to warn him though, I grew up near Chicago and it gets cold there. Like frozen water in the sky cold. GM

I don't see them as rules violations either, just the lay of the land here. All members seem to hold FI as a goal. From there some members respect the decision to choose RE or any other option including work in some form. But some members express the view that anyone who reaches FI and continues to work has to be a loser, seeming to say all work is evil. Volunteering judgement on Jacob's choices seems to fall in the latter POV. Sometimes I try to defend all options, usually I just let it go - consistent with community rules, and the right approach IMO anyway. We can agree to disagree amicably. All in all this is a great forum with thoughtful, intelligent members.

[MichaelB]

Jacob, I’ve not read your blog or book, but would like to make a few comments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob Well, first of all ... I never intended to be a figurehead in any way ...

Yes you did when you published it on a blog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob And I'd say it's more like someone who trains, completes and wins a big marathon, say the Boston one. Where's the challenge after that? Sure, one could do the same thing all over again and win it again next year. This, however, is a different challenge. Winning it the first time shows that it's possible to win it. Winning it the second time just shows that one is capable of repeating oneself. Winning the first time allows for personal growth/many insights. Winning it the second time ... is far from the same. Or okay, say you win it the second year as well. Do you want to repeat the drill the third year? It seems to me more like you're suggesting that because I won it once, I should keep competing in that same marathon for the rest of my life? Where's the challenge in that? Maybe that's enough for some, but I found it's not for me.

Retirement is leaving work forever. Not the same a race. A new challenge within retirement is not the same as un-retiring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob So look, the temperament (typical participant) of the E-R board and the temperament of the ERE are different. Just like the temperament is different on bogleheads (who largely don't understand frugality) or simpleliving (who largely don't like investing) or permaculture (who focus on natural assets), etc. And this means people have problems understanding each others motivations. Yes, I realize I'm hugely generalizing the various forums here, but I've also seen enough "statistics" to have a good idea of where people are coming from.

Hugely generalizing - yes. And I think, not fairly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacob One of the reasons I started the ERE board was because some people didn't feel they quite fit in over here on E-R and told me so. Nobody on E-R quite understood the different motivations over on ERE. I resisted setting up the ERE boards for a while (why duplicate the effort) but eventually gave in. I really do suspect it's generational. E-R are mainly baby boomers who see retirement as a big long party of traveling and having fun following some, hopefully, meaningful career. Your reason for E-R is to make that party last longer. ERE is predominantly Gen-X oriented. It's not about [your kind of] retirement as much as it's financial independence: the freedom from having to put up with career b.s. and find work or something else that interests us. These goals and life orientations are QUITE different. "Partying", that is, traveling, keeping in shape, or experiencing stuff is just not satisfying enough. There's no "contribution" in those activities.

I feel you mischaracterize this forum. We are all about reaching financial independence and then enjoying the benefit.

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Originally Posted by jacob Finally, there's a need to separate the message from the messenger. (This is a good part of the reason why I'm pulling back from this.) The math is what the math is. My SWR is 2.22% and even enormously rising health costs are not going to destroy that. My going back to work does not increase my SWR and 2.22% is very low ... even for 60+ years of withdrawals. I think many on E-R are just fine with SWRs of 3% or even 4%. Also, I'm not the only one doing this. Also, the math proves it works. It would not be a very intelligent use of my time to demonstrate the proof of concept in time. It would be like running 2 miles per day for 50 days and making the claim that if I keep doing that for another 50 days, I'll have run 200 miles total. Stopping after 50 days does not disprove that someone who had continued wouldn't have gotten to 200 miles in 100 days. I mean, go ahead, you know my SWR, you know my budget, you can then derive my networth. Go plug that into firecalc under some extremely conservative assumption. I'm using the same tools as you guys. Some think I'm tired of not spending money. I don't know what more I can possibly say to refute this. The way we live is a different lifestyle. It's not some sacrificing/reduced version of the consumerist/materialist lifestyle. (This is the point E-R and ERE often misunderstand each other, I think). When I go back to work, we'll have to move. We'll sell the RV and move into an apartment. I expect our rent to go up by $100-300 total. Conversely, RV insurance and maintenance will go away. We'll be driving less (or not at all) since we'll be inside the city instead of outside. Since we're moving east, CPI will go down and food will be cheaper. Overall, I expect to stay under $600/month.

The math is not the point. Retirement is not a milestone, it is a life goal. Going back to work, for whatever reason, is a choice we are all free to make, but it recharacterizes the achievement. Time off work or leave of absence to pursue other life goals is a noteworthy and legitimate pursuit, but it is not retirement.

[dixonge]

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Originally Posted by jacob It should have been called "SELF-SUFFICIENCY DIY ETHICS PERSONAL FREEDOM LOW ENVIRONMENTAL FOOTPRINT AND FINANCIAL INDEPENDENCE" dot com or something. The word retirement has so many unfortunate connotations depending on who's using it. Very many can not see past their own definition. It's my theory that the definition of retirement is generationally dependent---that is, how old one is/or think. Unfortunately, when I started the blog 4 years ago I never had any idea that one word would turn into such a big issue. If I had to start another blog today I'd title it something meaningless ... like penguinmuglock ... to avoid this issue.

I think that what you are describing is generally referred to as 'Lifestyle Design' (ala Tim Ferris) as opposed to FI or ER. There is overlap there, to be sure, but I think that most would agree that 'retirement' means not working for an employer. While the wife and I quit our jobs, we're still working on a freelance basis. I refer to myself as 'semi-retired' because we don't have a fixed address and all our possessions fit into a couple of backpacks. So I think it is fair to say you are 'unretired' and to point out the irony in your blog title.

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Originally Posted by Midpack I don't see them as rules violations either, just the lay of the land here. All members seem to hold FI as a goal. From there some members respect the decision to choose RE or any other option including work in some form.

But the web site does seem to indicate that ER is central, not just an option...

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Originally Posted by MichaelB I feel you mischaracterize this forum. We are all about reaching financial independence and then enjoying the benefit.

And yet 'early-retirement' is the domain name.