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Old 09-11-2008, 08:23 PM   #21
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I want to see the researchers put their money where their mouths are. How about a guarantee that people will be happier spending it all when they are young and not unhappy when they are old and broke.

I know one couple 68 and 70, that have been spending money like drunk sailors for years. They owe more money today on the house they bought in 1983 than they did when they bought it (9 refis). They still enjoying WORKING 8-5, I guess.

If either one of them falls ill or dies it's game over. No savings, huge mortgage and only SS (taken at 65) to live on. When that day comes it's good bye house and good bye life style.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:31 PM   #22
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Obviously if you save until it hurts and have a crappy quality of life as a result for a few decades, then have an average to above average retirement, you will not have maximized your utility/happiness.
Ouch. Guilty as charged.

In our defense, we didn't have much time to spend it-- either while working or parenting.

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I would assert that perhaps desire for early retirement is actually supported by the economists' article. For many of us, there is a desire to "retire" (ie - do whatever we desire all day) while we are still healthy and able to enjoy our time and money. Maybe age 40 for some. Age 50 for others. Some older. But most don't seem to like the idea of waiting till age 67 or 70 to start "having fun" in retirement. There seems to be an exponential increase in illness likelihood and severity the older you get. Maybe sometime in your late 50's is when the "illness" curve starts steepening??
This leads to the aphorisms that "Retirement is wasted on the old" and "Youth is wasted on the young". I think that ERs have worked hard enough for the privilege that they're much more able to appreciate the results. ER wouldn't taste as sweet if I did it at age 17 and skipped the yucky subsequent 24 years.

The "chance of dying" mortality tables start up the hockey-stick portion of the curve around age 60. And if something bad doesn't happen during that decade, then you're probably going to make it past your 70s.

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Here we go again...taking SS at 62 vs 65 or later...
But... but... shouldn't we pay off the mortgage first?!?

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I really resent the assumption that being over, say, 60 means that you can't enjoy life. This will be a battle for we boomers. We will win it but will be dragged back by the ones who gave up and won't get out of the rocking chair.
Hey, even Jarhead in his 70s has admitted that he can no longer drive golf balls or wheat bread as far as he used to. Battle all we want, but max heartrate inevitably declines with age and a whole host of other systems are constrained by the upper limit of that curve.

I spent the first six years of ER getting into the best shape of my life. I hope I can spend the next 30 years maintaining it, but I doubt that I'm going to exceed today's status quo.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:41 PM   #23
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I want to see the researchers put their money where their mouths are. How about a guarantee that people will be happier spending it all when they are young and not unhappy when they are old and broke.

I know one couple 68 and 70, that have been spending money like drunk sailors for years. They owe more money today on the house they bought in 1983 than they did when they bought it (9 refis). They still enjoying WORKING 8-5, I guess.

If either one of them falls ill or dies it's game over. No savings, huge mortgage and only SS (taken at 65) to live on. When that day comes it's good bye house and good bye life style.
Those are exactly my thoughts. Sure, it's important to stop and smell the roses during those years of LBYM and putting money aside. And it's only reasonable to buy oneself a treat now and then. But so many people are driven by greed, and would use this study as an excuse to spend nearly everything early in life. That is unwise.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:45 PM   #24
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And delightfully modest!
Modesty is for monks!!

Or is it moderation?

Hmmm...maybe its both.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:53 PM   #25
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Modesty is for monks!!

Or is it moderation?

Hmmm...maybe its both.
Yep - party til you puke.

Cause later it is more puke than party.

Just kidding just kidding - but I did live thirty years in New Orleans and at 65 a tad slower - just tad mind you.

heh heh heh - 15th yr of ER and enjoying it. .
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:30 PM   #26
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Interesting---- The thought that really bummed me was "that $100 would have meant a lot more to me then than it does now.
This is the point I was trying to make in why I have finally realized that paying off the mortgage sooner is a lose/lose situation
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:44 PM   #27
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I want to see the researchers put their money where their mouths are. How about a guarantee that people will be happier spending it all when they are young and not unhappy when they are old and broke.

I know one couple 68 and 70, that have been spending money like drunk sailors for years. They owe more money today on the house they bought in 1983 than they did when they bought it (9 refis). They still enjoying WORKING 8-5, I guess.

If either one of them falls ill or dies it's game over. No savings, huge mortgage and only SS (taken at 65) to live on. When that day comes it's good bye house and good bye life style.
Truthfully, I delayed a fair amount of fun (no club med, cheap whiskey, flying coach, etc) so that I would be able to FIRE at age 50. Now at 52 I am having a wonderful time (daily life is better than club med, fine scotch, don't fly anyway). I wasn't miserable when I was younger, because the young are flexible about life. But I sure would hate to spend my old age broke and unhappy.

Also, if you get all the bang for your buck when you are young, who is going to pay for your old age? Not me, I'm going offshore before all the foolish overspenders realize they can't ever retire.
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:48 PM   #28
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Nords said:

Hey, even Jarhead in his 70s has admitted that he can no longer drive golf balls or wheat bread as far as he used to. Battle all we want, but max heartrate inevitably declines with age and a whole host of other systems are constrained by the upper limit of that curve.

I spent the first six years of ER getting into the best shape of my life. I hope I can spend the next 30 years maintaining it, but I doubt that I'm going to exceed today's status quo.[/quote]


OK so instead of driving 300 he drives 230. I'm 60 and am just apporaching 290 yard drives. Because I am now working on drives rather than aikido throws or my tennis serve, I am confident that I can in the next couple of years, if I keep focused, get close to the 300 yard drive. It doesn't have to be 300. It could be 200 over the previous 170. Decline due to aging is hugely surmountable. Telling me I should pop my financial wad now (or should already have) is a mammoth insult and extremely presumptuous quip. Why I oughta . . . . .
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:08 PM   #29
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I've been watching the aged at my dads retirement community for about 6 years now. Seems like everyone does pretty well up until around 70-71, then one spouse or the other develops a fairly serious/debilitating illness or injury that pretty much keeps them in the house. Many do well until around 75. It doesnt look too good after that for running around town until all hours, spending money and howling at the moon. The place looks like a neutron bomb landed after about 2 in the afternoon.

Some people keep going though. Some travel a bunch, some hit the casinos every day, some still show up to swim laps in the pool and walk on the treadmills.
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:24 PM   #30
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This thread has gone in a direction that may belong in the health column but if you think that 71 is "old" check out arthurdevany.com
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:28 PM   #31
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Yep, there are always exceptions. I'm speaking from the perspective of looking at about 3000 well to do, relatively wealthy people with good health insurance living in a very well insulated environment that caters strongly to older folks.

I'm imagining its less good for people who arent hitting on all those cylinders.
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:29 PM   #32
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You CAN have it all!
Really?
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:33 PM   #33
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Some people keep going though. Some travel a bunch, some hit the casinos every day, some still show up to swim laps in the pool and walk on the treadmills.
I am hoping that I can do these things in my 70s.
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:36 PM   #34
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Yeah me too. But its like the rash of folks who plan their retirement to last until they're 120. Its quite possible but there are quite a few obstacles to overcome.
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:42 PM   #35
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[quote=cute fuzzy bunny;712859]Yep, there are always exceptions.

Devany isn't an exception. He's a guy who figured out that eating and exercising intelligently (that means whole foods, low refined carbs and some resistance exercise-not "jogging") made a huge difference in the aging profile. Everyone can be "exceptional" if they keep moving, lifting and stop eating the crap they find in the middle aisles of the supermarket. That may even include a cancer survivor, rehabbed type II diabetic or cardiac patient.
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:47 PM   #36
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From my POV as a healthy, active but older guy, fun at 30 is more fun than anything you can think of at 50.

I am glad I lived the way I did, took a lot of risks, had a ball and still squeaked by. My fat was pulled out of the fire a few times. If it hadn't worked I could apply for subsidized housing.

Everybody is different.

ha
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:58 PM   #37
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[quote=cute fuzzy bunny

Some people keep going though. Some travel a bunch, some hit the casinos every day, some still show up to swim laps in the pool and walk on the treadmills.[/quote]

Holy crap! I see people in their 70's and a few in their 80's playing competitive tennis, hiking, kayaking for hours, skiing intermediate slopes, doing kickass yoga and other things that you would not believe so I won't mention it. I see early retiremnt as an opportunity to find the vitality The Man sapped for those decades! Garden, play with the dog, rake leaves, chop wood, carry water.
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:28 PM   #38
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Holy crap! I see people in their 70's and a few in their 80's playing competitive tennis, hiking, kayaking for hours, skiing intermediate slopes, doing kickass yoga and other things that you would not believe so I won't mention it. I see early retiremnt as an opportunity to find the vitality The Man sapped for those decades! Garden, play with the dog, rake leaves, chop wood, carry water.
Yes, but one thing I cannot stand is the arrogance of those who are genetically gifted to be able to stay so physically active. I spent my life staying fit and living right and still have ended up at age 45 with a lower back that has me unable to do those things anymore. I live in a fair amount of pain daily.

I'm coming to accept that new reality, but I just can't stand those who think that their physical prowess as they age is all due to their efforts, and that anybody who has problems has somehow brought it upon themselves.

Their smugness can be rather infuriating.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:01 AM   #39
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Decline due to aging is hugely surmountable. Telling me I should pop my financial wad now (or should already have) is a mammoth insult and extremely presumptuous quip. Why I oughta . . . . .
Chill, dude.

Jarhead's perspective is as a lifelong scratch golfer who nearly qualified for the PGA & Seniors tours. I queried him on his claims and he explained it with his usual aplomb & detail. If he says his performance is declining due to aging then I suspect that wishing otherwise won't make it so. He says his putting is still doing well, though, in great measure due to the overinflated opinion that younger, wealthier, and more overconfident golfers have in their own putting.

I agree with you that people can remain vigorous into their 80s & 90s. I agree with you that people can improve their performance, especially in activities that they haven't previously tried.

However for every anecdotal geriatric example you cite, you might consider having the tolerance to accept that others don't have the genetics or the health to emulate Chris Crowley's "Just do it!!" rants. As a guy who's entering his fourth decade of military-sponsored physical fitness, I can attest that the things I used to do in my teens & 20s no longer happen despite all the training & wishing in the world. It's due to the gradual loss of heart-muscle flexibility, dropping mitochondrial V02 capacity, and testosterone-declining recovery. After all, when's the last time you stayed up all night and shrugged it off the next day?

But, hey, you don't have to take our word for it. Give yourself 10-20 years and analyze your own performance data.

By the way, when Warren Buffett says "Don't save sex for old age", I'm inclined to have faith in his credibility. I'm not going to avoid popping any wads, let alone financial ones, just for the benefit of my heirs or charities...
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Old 09-12-2008, 06:10 AM   #40
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I spent my life staying fit and living right and still have ended up at age 45 with a lower back that has me unable to do those things anymore. I live in a fair amount of pain daily.
I am sorry to hear that.

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I'm coming to accept that new reality ..
It's the same for me as I experience shoulder ache and lower back pain on a daily basis, albeit not severe to the point that may cripple physical activities.
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