Economists say spend it while you're young

[honobob]

Interesting---- The thought that really bummed me was "that $100 would have meant a lot more to me then than it does now.

This is the point I was trying to make in why I have finally realized that paying off the mortgage sooner is a lose/lose situation

 

[harley]

I want to see the researchers put their money where their mouths are. How about a guarantee that people will be happier spending it all when they are young and not unhappy when they are old and broke.

I know one couple 68 and 70, that have been spending money like drunk sailors for years. They owe more money today on the house they bought in 1983 than they did when they bought it (9 refis). They still enjoying WORKING 8-5, I guess.

If either one of them falls ill or dies it's game over. No savings, huge mortgage and only SS (taken at 65) to live on. When that day comes it's good bye house and good bye life style.

Truthfully, I delayed a fair amount of fun (no club med, cheap whiskey, flying coach, etc) so that I would be able to FIRE at age 50. Now at 52 I am having a wonderful time (daily life is better than club med, fine scotch, don't fly anyway). I wasn't miserable when I was younger, because the young are flexible about life. But I sure would hate to spend my old age broke and unhappy.

Also, if you get all the bang for your buck when you are young, who is going to pay for your old age? Not me, I'm going offshore before all the foolish overspenders realize they can't ever retire.

 

[windsurf]

Nords said:

Hey, even Jarhead in his 70s has admitted that he can no longer drive golf balls or wheat bread as far as he used to. Battle all we want, but max heartrate inevitably declines with age and a whole host of other systems are constrained by the upper limit of that curve.

I spent the first six years of ER getting into the best shape of my life. I hope I can spend the next 30 years maintaining it, but I doubt that I'm going to exceed today's status quo.[/quote]

OK so instead of driving 300 he drives 230. I'm 60 and am just apporaching 290 yard drives. Because I am now working on drives rather than aikido throws or my tennis serve, I am confident that I can in the next couple of years, if I keep focused, get close to the 300 yard drive. It doesn't have to be 300. It could be 200 over the previous 170. Decline due to aging is hugely surmountable. Telling me I should pop my financial wad now (or should already have) is a mammoth insult and extremely presumptuous quip. Why I oughta . . . . .

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I've been watching the aged at my dads retirement community for about 6 years now. Seems like everyone does pretty well up until around 70-71, then one spouse or the other develops a fairly serious/debilitating illness or injury that pretty much keeps them in the house. Many do well until around 75. It doesnt look too good after that for running around town until all hours, spending money and howling at the moon. The place looks like a neutron bomb landed after about 2 in the afternoon.

Some people keep going though. Some travel a bunch, some hit the casinos every day, some still show up to swim laps in the pool and walk on the treadmills.

 

[windsurf]

This thread has gone in a direction that may belong in the health column but if you think that 71 is "old" check out arthurdevany.com

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Yep, there are always exceptions. I'm speaking from the perspective of looking at about 3000 well to do, relatively wealthy people with good health insurance living in a very well insulated environment that caters strongly to older folks.

I'm imagining its less good for people who arent hitting on all those cylinders.

 

[Spanky]

You CAN have it all!

Really?

 

[Spanky]

Some people keep going though. Some travel a bunch, some hit the casinos every day, some still show up to swim laps in the pool and walk on the treadmills.

I am hoping that I can do these things in my 70s.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Yeah me too. But its like the rash of folks who plan their retirement to last until they're 120. Its quite possible but there are quite a few obstacles to overcome.

 

[windsurf]

Yep, there are always exceptions.

Devany isn't an exception. He's a guy who figured out that eating and exercising intelligently (that means whole foods, low refined carbs and some resistance exercise-not "jogging") made a huge difference in the aging profile. Everyone can be "exceptional" if they keep moving, lifting and stop eating the crap they find in the middle aisles of the supermarket. That may even include a cancer survivor, rehabbed type II diabetic or cardiac patient.

 

[haha]

From my POV as a healthy, active but older guy, fun at 30 is more fun than anything you can think of at 50.

I am glad I lived the way I did, took a lot of risks, had a ball and still squeaked by. My fat was pulled out of the fire a few times. If it hadn't worked I could apply for subsidized housing.

Everybody is different.

ha

 

[windsurf]

Holy crap! I see people in their 70's and a few in their 80's playing competitive tennis, hiking, kayaking for hours, skiing intermediate slopes, doing kickass yoga and other things that you would not believe so I won't mention it. I see early retiremnt as an opportunity to find the vitality The Man sapped for those decades! Garden, play with the dog, rake leaves, chop wood, carry water.

 

[Gardnr]

Holy crap! I see people in their 70's and a few in their 80's playing competitive tennis, hiking, kayaking for hours, skiing intermediate slopes, doing kickass yoga and other things that you would not believe so I won't mention it. I see early retiremnt as an opportunity to find the vitality The Man sapped for those decades! Garden, play with the dog, rake leaves, chop wood, carry water.

Yes, but one thing I cannot stand is the arrogance of those who are genetically gifted to be able to stay so physically active. I spent my life staying fit and living right and still have ended up at age 45 with a lower back that has me unable to do those things anymore. I live in a fair amount of pain daily.

I'm coming to accept that new reality, but I just can't stand those who think that their physical prowess as they age is all due to their efforts, and that anybody who has problems has somehow brought it upon themselves.

Their smugness can be rather infuriating.

 

[Nords]

Decline due to aging is hugely surmountable. Telling me I should pop my financial wad now (or should already have) is a mammoth insult and extremely presumptuous quip. Why I oughta . . . . .

Chill, dude.

Jarhead's perspective is as a lifelong scratch golfer who nearly qualified for the PGA & Seniors tours. I queried him on his claims and he explained it with his usual aplomb & detail. If he says his performance is declining due to aging then I suspect that wishing otherwise won't make it so. He says his putting is still doing well, though, in great measure due to the overinflated opinion that younger, wealthier, and more overconfident golfers have in their own putting.

I agree with you that people can remain vigorous into their 80s & 90s. I agree with you that people can improve their performance, especially in activities that they haven't previously tried.

However for every anecdotal geriatric example you cite, you might consider having the tolerance to accept that others don't have the genetics or the health to emulate Chris Crowley's "Just do it!!" rants. As a guy who's entering his fourth decade of military-sponsored physical fitness, I can attest that the things I used to do in my teens & 20s no longer happen despite all the training & wishing in the world. It's due to the gradual loss of heart-muscle flexibility, dropping mitochondrial V02 capacity, and testosterone-declining recovery. After all, when's the last time you stayed up all night and shrugged it off the next day?

But, hey, you don't have to take our word for it. Give yourself 10-20 years and analyze your own performance data.

By the way, when Warren Buffett says "Don't save sex for old age", I'm inclined to have faith in his credibility. I'm not going to avoid popping any wads, let alone financial ones, just for the benefit of my heirs or charities...

 

[Spanky]

I spent my life staying fit and living right and still have ended up at age 45 with a lower back that has me unable to do those things anymore. I live in a fair amount of pain daily.

I am sorry to hear that.

I'm coming to accept that new reality ..

It's the same for me as I experience shoulder ache and lower back pain on a daily basis, albeit not severe to the point that may cripple physical activities.

 

[OAG]

Here we go again...taking SS at 62 vs 65 or later...

Warning Hijack in process:

Have it both ways - take it at 62 spend it all, then at 70 mortgage the house with a low interest and interest only HELOC pay it all back and start all over at the 70 rate. Forget about paying the HELOC off there will just be less equity for others to fight about.

 

[Khan]

Yes, but one thing I cannot stand is the arrogance of those who are genetically gifted to be able to stay so physically active. I spent my life staying fit and living right and still have ended up at age 45 with a lower back that has me unable to do those things anymore. I live in a fair amount of pain daily.

I'm coming to accept that new reality, but I just can't stand those who think that their physical prowess as they age is all due to their efforts, and that anybody who has problems has somehow brought it upon themselves.

Their smugness can be rather infuriating.

Absolutely.

At 58, I'm now in better health/shape than I have been since about 30 years ago. I'm tweaking the food and the exercise, and expect to be in better condition at a lower weight in a year or so.

However, I have seen my future while watching my mother age (and her father before her). Bad stuff is showing up on schedule: arthritis (especially in the hands and knees), carpal tunnel problems, ulnar nerve problems.

I can work on and around the developing problems, but after 65 or so I will lose ground rapidly; and there is no exercise or food or vitamin or voodoo that can do a darn thing about it. Modern medicine can help with painkillers and surgery, but by 75 or so I will no longer be able to live alone.

"The good news is: It doesn't kill you. The bad news is: It doesn't kill you."

 

[FUEGO]

Ouch. Guilty as charged.

In our defense, we didn't have much time to spend it-- either while working or parenting.

Not having much time to spend it probably equates to not receiving much marginal utility from spending it while you are young (and working and parenting).

I'm in the same boat right now with DW and I working and parenting a growing family. We just don't have a lot of free time to spend money on things or experiences right now.

 

[ejman]

I've been watching the aged at my dads retirement community for about 6 years now. Seems like everyone does pretty well up until around 70-71, then one spouse or the other develops a fairly serious/debilitating illness or injury that pretty much keeps them in the house. Many do well until around 75. It doesnt look too good after that for running around town until all hours, spending money and howling at the moon. The place looks like a neutron bomb landed after about 2 in the afternoon.

Some people keep going though. Some travel a bunch, some hit the casinos every day, some still show up to swim laps in the pool and walk on the treadmills.

I'm wondering if people that join retirement communities might be self selecting so that they fit a profile that starts a significant decline in the early 70's. Plenty of examples of people in much latter life that are quite active and not in retirement communities. In many other countries the old, the middle and the young live together and communities of the decrepit are rare. Chicken or the egg?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Thats always a possibility, but its an 'active senior community'. Three golf courses, a clubhouse with everything from card games to wood working to health club, indoor and outdoor pools. Most people buy in there to play golf and participate in the 'summer camp for old folks' routine.

What seems to be the primary problem is when one spouse passes on or develops the serious illness injury. There are a lot of couples where one has suffered a stroke, loss of eyesight, a major bone or muscular illness or injury, etc. Not something you'd have likely avoided by eating well or doing pushups, or something that would easily self-select.

The other spouse is then left with the choice of sitting home with their SO or going out on the town alone. Guess which way that usually goes.

I'm not sure the message is "you're going to fall apart when you hit 70, so shoot your wad NOW!". I think its "If you have a choice of living better in your 50's and 60's by spending a little more money, reconsider your probable spending needs in your 80's and 90's and maybe cut your plan age from 120 to 95 or so"

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

like khan, i've got arthritic hands and there ain't nothin' i can do about that. just from gardening yesterday they are hurting still today. i wonder now if i won't be able to live on a sailboat even. i'm not sure i'd trust my hands to climb a mast. so it's just one less option to consider. once i get it out of my head and come to terms with my physical limitations, i'll be able to move on to something else that will make me just as happy. not a big deal. smile. that's life.

 

[Nords]

I'm wondering if people that join retirement communities might be self selecting so that they fit a profile that starts a significant decline in the early 70's.

Do you mean "self selecting" in the sense of "not dead"?

 

[Canadian Grunt]

I lived hard and fast when I was younger and in the military knowing I had a pension at the end. At 35 I cut it back quite a bit. Now I have a hard time spending (although I did buy a new Harley last year).

LBYM is almost like a disease, I find I have to make a conscious effort to spend on myself even though I can afford it. Although my military pension and investments cover all my bills and leave room for discretional spending I am not comfortable with the level of independence so ER is not an option I will explore until I hit 55. I decided several months ago to stop investing my max amount and start monthly fixed contributions and not worry about the rest or how I spend it.

This strategy seems to take some of the guilt from spending and allows me to stick to my investing goals. I also slid ER to the back burner for 10 more years until I reach 55 and then I will reassess my desire to retire.

 

[pedorrero]

Hmmmm....an interesting topic. Here's some points from my own family: I was able to retire at 41, in large measure, because both parents died and (duh) left me money. Both my parents were frugal, to the point where a trust officer once commented (accurately, I think) that the "denied themselves many pleasures." I don't plan to repeat that mistake. I have little fear of spending my money too soon, as it's entirely locked up in trusts and gets parceled out to me. But that bitching is another (old) thread. Another point: I have living relatives (aunts, uncles) who are now well into their 80s. They are in (relatively) good health, but one of their children remarked to me (I was discussing likely inheritances): "There probably won't be very much left."

the point is to find your balance. On the one hand, it's stupid to scrimp and save, live a long life, and die rich. Even the Bible has words to that effect, about "A man who has no sun, yet works hard. Who will inherit his wealth?" At the other extreme, you shouldn't piss it all away today (unless, perhaps, you have a short life expectancy.) Why not a middle ground? I'd take that backpack trip at 25 (or 35, or 45) rather than wait until retirement. If I can still visit Japan, India, or Peru in my 70s and 80s like dear Auntie did, well and dandy, but tomorrow is given to no man, much less 30 or 40 years from now. Grab life by the ballls and twist! Just my $0.02

Another reason is to spend while the spending's good: future illness, taxes, or just plain problems could make your wealth vanish. Let's see, how about expensive Medicaid care in your last months, followed by taxes or recapture of your remaining assets? Or: high taxes in the unpredictable future? This country will have to raise revenues somehow, and taxing your retirement savings might be just the ticket. On the other hand, I defy Uncle Sam to tax the month I spent in Mexico this past summer, or my Summer 1995 bike ride around northern Europe. Point well made?

 

[mews]

Grab life by the ballls and twist!
=====

Please be aware that life may not like you if you do

ta,
mew