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Old 02-22-2015, 10:42 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by samclem View Post
I don't understand this reasoning. The taxpayer would still be paying these benefits (food stamps, etc) if the person had no job at all, so the employer really isn't part of the equation. Yet people say this--that the government is somehow "subsidizing" employers of low-wage workers.

As far as I can see, it only makes sense if we assume that the employer isn't paying for the services of the employee, but is instead responsible for meeting all the basic material needs of their employees in exchange for their labor--so the government's food stamps help the employer meet their obligation. But that would be far different than the normal understanding of the employer/employee relationship.

Lots of low-wage part time workers have a couple of jobs to make ends meet. It has always been that way.
If you think of all low wage jobs as something teenagers do for spending money, then there is no issue.

If however, you think of some of the people holding these jobs as adults because for various reasons (like criminal record, no high school, etc) then its easy to see one can work full time at one of these jobs and still qualify for food stamps (taxpayer making up the difference).

It is based on the law the permits certain employers to pay less than slave wages. Some wages are so low that it would cost more to house, feed, cloth, and take medical care of a slave assuming you want your slave to live because they cost a lot of money.
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Old 02-22-2015, 11:03 PM   #42
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It is based on the law the permits certain employers to pay less than slave wages. Some wages are so low that it would cost more to house, feed, cloth, and take medical care of a slave assuming you want your slave to live because they cost a lot of money.
Okay, I think we've jumped the shark. I appreciate your explanation. We are clearly coming to this with different understandings about the nature of the employer/employee relationship.
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:34 AM   #43
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Actually, that's NOT idiotic and sad. I go out to eat with my 82-year-old FIL at least once every week. He insists on paying every other time. He had a stroke several years ago, so in fact, he quite literally "can't do the math." We have a "routine", where he gives the waitress his credit card. When she returns, he asks me, what do think about a tip? At that point, I grab the bill, fill in the necessary amounts, etc, and return it to him to sign. It makes for one less humiliating moment for a proud American engineer who helped put a man on the moon, but can no longer calculate 15% of $25. But yeah, that's idiotic and sad.
Proof by exception? Of course there are some people who may be challenged to calculate a tip.

In the article the OP linked, 'doing the math' was the first of several primary reasons the author used to support eliminating tipping. That would suggest most/many people can't manage calculating a tip. It is idiotic and sad that most people can't do the math, as the OP suggests. It's not hard to do in your head, but today most people have smartphones with calculators, even free tip calculator apps. A few restaurants even print out a range of tips on the bottom of their receipts.
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Old 02-23-2015, 06:38 AM   #44
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Maybe this innovation will help:

How Technology Is Tricking You Into Tipping More

Quote:
A new report by the tech research firm Software Advice discovered that digital point-of-sale terminals, like the one in my cab, increase the frequency and amount of tips left by customers. What’s the secret behind how these manipulative machines get us to pony up?
Quote:
How did tipping increase so dramatically? Clearly the service wasn’t 38 percent better. Patrons didn’t suddenly become more generous. Rather, the higher tipping is a result of a few intriguing design decisions by the payment processor.
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However, for the average person just trying to do the right thing, these devices can mean hundreds if not thousands of dollars spent unintentionally. ... for example, most of us don’t have the time or mental bandwidth to think about how the way we’re paying affects how much we are paying.

During these times, our brain is operating out of habit, and we quickly act with little or no conscious thought. We remain woefully unaware of how these interfaces leverage our deeper psychology to change our behavior by design.
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Old 02-23-2015, 06:39 AM   #45
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I won't name him by name but a very wealthy politician (you see him just about every single day on TV) is notorious for not tipping. At all. Nothing.

He just doesn't tip and God knows he can afford it.

When waiters see him come in they run for the kitchen hoping some newbie will get him.

When he dines with others, they will look embarrassed and throw down a $50 on the table behind his back as he leaves.

Mods: feel free to delete this post if you feel it could become political
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Old 02-23-2015, 08:03 AM   #46
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It is an interesting scenario, but imagine if waitstaff didn't have to evaluate your ability to tip based on their ability to please you. No one would then be interested in how well you enjoyed your restaurant experience.
Why do you say that? There are more ways than just money to motivate and give feedback to people. Do you pay a significant other a bonus if that person is nice to you to show your appreciation?

Believe it or not, but many people take pride in their jobs and want to do it right, even if they don't really want to work!

In fact, there is much to be said for removing financial incentives and putting in social incentives to perform well, especially since essentially waiting tables is a social job to begin with.
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Old 02-23-2015, 08:05 AM   #47
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He just doesn't tip and God knows he can afford it.
Do you know why?
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Old 02-23-2015, 08:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by fritz
It is an interesting scenario, but imagine if waitstaff didn't have to evaluate your ability to tip based on their ability to please you. No one would then be interested in how well you enjoyed your restaurant experience.

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Why do you say that? There are more ways than just money to motivate and give feedback to people. Do you pay a significant other a bonus if that person is nice to you to show your appreciation?

Believe it or not, but many people take pride in their jobs and want to do it right, even if they don't really want to work!

In fact, there is much to be said for removing financial incentives and putting in social incentives to perform well, especially since essentially waiting tables is a social job to begin with.
Given that I find most restaurants we frequent do not really solicit customer feedback (other than some giving receipt/website feedback concern), and we're not going to see customer tipping (at least in the U.S.) as the bulk of waitstaff income go away anytime soon - I don't see a comment like "thanks for great service" with no monetary incentive getting you favor in your favorite places. You could end up being talked about and waitstaff hiding from you in your favorite places - like a well known wealthy politician who has a reputation for not tipping...

I received financial incentives throughout my career (commissions, vacation trips, stock options, management bonuses, etc). The bulk of CEO pay these days is mostly comprised of incentive pay (stock options). I created incentive programs where rewards were paid to non-employees (mfr. to company owned and independent distribution) that were very successful. Don't know too many that don't appreciate a financial incentive with a verbal attaboy (what's a raise?). Incentive pay works IMHO.
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Old 02-23-2015, 09:17 AM   #49
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To the folks that said "not in my lifetime", I have a question for you...

Wouldn't a law that forced every business, including restaurants, to pay the real minimum wage precipitate a no tipping culture in no time? I'd think twice about tipping in those cities (that city?) that implemented that law locally.
I'd like to see a law that says servers get the regular minimum wage from the employer, plus 100% of any tips.

The impact would depend on what customers believe today. I expect a lot of customers think that's already happening, so such a law may not change what they choose to tip.
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Old 02-23-2015, 09:40 AM   #50
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I'd like to see a law that says servers get the regular minimum wage from the employer, plus 100% of any tips.
And how whould Taxes be handled, SS, for instance? (Specifically the employer's portion of SS.) By the employer or the employee? For that matter, how is that treated now?
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Old 02-23-2015, 10:31 AM   #51
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they should just do "forced" tipping, like they do at my golf club
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Old 02-23-2015, 11:56 AM   #52
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I don't really care for tipping either. I do it (15-18% unless the service was extraordinary in the good or bad directions). It's just a cost of dining out that makes everything 25% more expensive (when you add the sales tax). So an $8 entree really costs $10.

I really don't like the sycophant fake waiters that try to chat you up and come back to check on you every 5 minutes. I mean, keep an eye on my glass, keep it full and I'll waive you over if something needs addressing or I need to order something else.

I realize that I tend to patronize restaurants that don't have waiters. Part of that is probably the fact that I'm saving 18% on every food purchase in exchange for spending 2 minutes walking to the counter to pick up our family's meals (thereby saving $5-10). The other part is my general DIY attitude. If I need more of something, I can just grab it from the counter instead of waiting for a waiter to acknowledge I need something, request an item, then waiting a few more minutes for them to walk a few feet and grab something and bring it to me.
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:22 PM   #53
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Americans like tipping to show that they are bosses to reward servants. They show their dollars everywhere in the world, even in those places, like many Asian countries, that do not accept tips. I think tipping is a bad habit. Should students tip good professors? Should businessmen tip senators?


Here are what I did in Panama City. Taking taxi from airport to the hotel, tipped taxi driver; getting into the hotel lobby, tipped the doorman; getting my luggage, tipping the luggage man; in the morning, tipped the maid; eating the breakfast, tipped the waitress. The hotel managers should be responsible for managing their staffs.
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:29 PM   #54
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I think tipping is a bad habit. Should students tip good professors? Should businessmen tip senators?
those guys don't get paid $2.50 an hour - servers depend heavily on tips for income
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:29 PM   #55
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Americans like tipping to show that they are bosses to reward servants.
[max sarcasm]Yep, that describes all Americans.[/sarcasm]
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:29 PM   #56
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Here are what I did in Panama City. Taking taxi from airport to the hotel, tipped taxi driver; getting into the hotel lobby, tipped the doorman; getting my luggage, tipping the luggage man; in the morning, tipped the maid; eating the breakfast, tipped the waitress.
that's normal behavior
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:32 PM   #57
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Should businessmen tip senators?
How else are we supposed to get special treatment from politicians?
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:33 PM   #58
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How else are we supposed to get special treatment from politicians?
good one
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:33 PM   #59
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Americans like tipping to show that they are bosses to reward servants. They show their dollars everywhere in the world, even in those places, like many Asian countries, that do not accept tips. I think tipping is a bad habit. Should students tip good professors? Should businessmen tip senators?


Here are what I did in Panama City. Taking taxi from airport to the hotel, tipped taxi driver; getting into the hotel lobby, tipped the doorman; getting my luggage, tipping the luggage man; in the morning, tipped the maid; eating the breakfast, tipped the waitress. The hotel managers should be responsible for managing their staffs.
Did you do all that tipping to show you were a boss rewarding servants?
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:39 PM   #60
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Did you do all that tipping to show you were a boss rewarding servants?
I felt that I was obligated.

By the way, the waiters should not be paid $2.5 a hour, they should be paid at least the minimum wages.
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