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Old 02-23-2015, 12:42 PM   #61
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By the way, the waiters should not be paid $2.5 a hour, they should be paid at least the minimum wages.
Maybe they make more than minimum wage now with tips. No one can produce the accounting, but wouldn't you think they'd get a minimum wage job if they weren't already making as much or more?

Many servers make a lot more than minimum wage now, and most restaurants (low, med & high end) I know of seem to have the same regular tipped wage servers for years. Turnover is far worse at fast food restaurants, where they are paid minimum wage, and there is no service - isn't that interesting?
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:44 PM   #62
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Americans like tipping to show that they are bosses to reward servants..
Yeah, we are all pretty despicable. That's the number one reason that I tip the waitress down at the diner; make sure she knows who's boss.
Thanks for pointing it out !


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Old 02-23-2015, 12:49 PM   #63
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I felt that I was obligated.

....
Don't you think that's really why Americans tip?
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:50 PM   #64
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By the way, the waiters should not be paid $2.5 a hour, they should be paid at least the minimum wages.
I'm pretty sure the servers at my golf club make significantly more than minimum wage with the forced tipping.
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:52 PM   #65
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Maybe they make more than minimum wage now with tips. No one can produce the accounting, but wouldn't you think they'd get a minimum wage job if they weren't already making as much or more? Many servers make a lot more than minimum wage now, and most restaurants (low, med & high end) I know of seem to have the same regular tipped wage servers for years. Turnover is far worse at fast food restaurants, where they are paid minimum wage, and there is no service - isn't that interesting?
Tipping shifts the staff managing responsibility from managers to the customers.

By they way, I should have used the term "masters" to reward servants. Tipping is just humiliating.
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:56 PM   #66
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Tipping is just humiliating.
uh, please explain that to me like I'm in sixth grade

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Old 02-23-2015, 01:01 PM   #67
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Tipping shifts the staff managing responsibility from managers to the customers.

By they way, I should have used the term "masters" to reward servants. Tipping is just humiliating.
I was a server in college in a pizza place and an upscale restaurant, made way, way more than minimum wage at both, nothing humiliating about it. What kind of restaurant did you work in?

Again, there are good servers who are being taken advantage of (by managers and customers), and steps can and should be taken to improve their lot. But that is not the case for all by any means, eliminating tipping just creates new problems. There are some intermediate steps that might help, but 'eliminate tipping' and 'pay all servers minimum wage' are like most knee jerk solutions...
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:04 PM   #68
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Many servers make a lot more than minimum wage now, and most restaurants (low, med & high end) I know of seem to have the same regular tipped wage servers for years. Turnover is far worse at fast food restaurants, where they are paid minimum wage, and there is no service - isn't that interesting?
I rarely patronize fast food joints (or restaurants in general), but I tend to have really excellent service at fast food places. Quick service (McD's can prepare and serve a custom order in under a minute), very high order accuracy (probably tech related since many places display what the cashier keys in for your order), quick to fix mistakes including comping or replacing items. Quick service for follow up requests.

There are exceptions of course, but I think a lot of it comes down to management and how well they enforce corporate policy. I've done some mystery shopping at some fast food places and they evaluate their restaurants and employees on dozens or hundreds of details. Over two minutes from ordering to receiving food is considered a delay at McD's for example IIRC. Did the cashier smile? etc.

The bottom line is that I would expect a halfway decent manager to be able to distinguish an average to above average server from a below average server and get rid of the crappy ones.
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:07 PM   #69
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I rarely patronize fast food joints (or restaurants in general), but I tend to have really excellent service at fast food places. Quick service (McD's can prepare and serve a custom order in under a minute), very high order accuracy (probably tech related since many places display what the cashier keys in for your order), quick to fix mistakes including comping or replacing items. Quick service for follow up requests.

There are exceptions of course, but I think a lot of it comes down to management and how well they enforce corporate policy. I've done some mystery shopping at some fast food places and they evaluate their restaurants and employees on dozens or hundreds of details. Over two minutes from ordering to receiving food is considered a delay at McD's for example IIRC. Did the cashier smile? etc.

The bottom line is that I would expect a halfway decent manager to be able to distinguish an average to above average server from a below average server and get rid of the crappy ones.
You're understandably using service as a broad term. I agree most fast food places are cheap, quick and accurate, that's their forte. But there's a big difference between production/queuing and restaurant service. What you get in fast food restaurants is the former, with only a passing resemblance to quality restaurant service.
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:13 PM   #70
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those guys don't get paid $2.50 an hour - servers depend heavily on tips for income
That's the point. Isn't it?
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:21 PM   #71
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You're understandably using service as a broad term. I agree most fast food places are cheap, quick and accurate, that's their forte. But there's a big difference between production/queuing and restaurant service. What you get in fast food restaurants is the former, with only a passing resemblance to quality restaurant service.
I'm focusing on the result, not the process. Fast food (where there isn't any tipping) yields great service in my experience, while table service is a mixed bag (mostly good), yet almost always involves tipping. How can fast food workers provide great service if tipping is necessary to ensure good service?
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:36 PM   #72
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I don't want to get into the tipping argument beyond saying that anyone working should be getting at least minimum wage however the money is sourced.


The Applebee's here put in automated pay systems on each table. When you use them to pay the bill and get to the tip page, it pops up 20% for the default tip and tells you that you can change it. I have noticed that few people seem to be availing themselves of the automated system and the waiters seem happy to let them ignore the systems.
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:48 PM   #73
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permits certain employers to pay less than slave wages.

Just to be accurate, slave wages were zero.
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:53 PM   #74
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Just to be accurate, slave wages were zero.
Weren't (aren't) most given food, clothing and shelter?
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:55 PM   #75
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I'm focusing on the result, not the process. Fast food (where there isn't any tipping) yields great service in my experience, while table service is a mixed bag (mostly good), yet almost always involves tipping. How can fast food workers provide great service if tipping is necessary to ensure good service?
I gather we're having a tongue in cheek debate. You know the difference and you can dismiss the processes, but comparing fast food and table service is apples to oranges because of the process differences. You're equating fast & hot mostly self service to "table service?"

In the case of fast food, you present an order at a counter or drive thru, from a relatively narrow menu that rarely changes much (the Big Mac was introduced in 1968), the counterperson fills your order from rows of automated process pre-made burgers/fries/whatever, you carry your food/plastic utensils/paper products to a (maybe clean) table and often get your own ice & drink/refill, and you return your tray and dispose of your waste yourself. If you need something, you go get it. I guess you could tip yourself for doing these tasks well. What comes with table "service" is taken out of the hands of fast food workers as much as possible.

In a table service restaurant, someone does most if not all the above for you, coordinating timed bar and (several) food courses just for your table, from a (far) more complex and changing menu. So you tip them if all the services they do for you to make your dining experience pleasant, that a fast food worker isn't asked to.

We all serve customers, not just restaurant workers.
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:59 PM   #76
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I'm focusing on the result, not the process. Fast food (where there isn't any tipping) yields great service in my experience, while table service is a mixed bag (mostly good), yet almost always involves tipping. How can fast food workers provide great service if tipping is necessary to ensure good service?
You've never experienced a McTartare burger?
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Old 02-23-2015, 02:32 PM   #77
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By they way, I should have used the term "masters" to reward servants. Tipping is just humiliating.
Most of the waitstaff I know don't mind the "humiliation" one bit, nor do they feel like 'servants'. And, as noted, they do quite better than if they were making minimum wage.
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Old 02-23-2015, 02:35 PM   #78
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You've never experienced a McTartare burger?
Yes, once in high school at a fast food place in Raleigh (Checkers??). I've had plenty more very pink to red "well done" burgers in sit down restaurants with table service (not that it's necessarily the waitstaff's fault). Nothing like paying $13 for a burger that isn't cooked per your specs then expecting to tip another 18% on that $13 (couldn't return it due to being in a hurry at a work lunch). At a restaurant run by a James Beard award winner, former Iron Chef contestant, etc.

I'll take a McD's burger over a medium rare masquerading as a well done any day of the week.
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Old 02-23-2015, 02:46 PM   #79
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I don't mind tipping, waiters work hard and need to make a decent living......BUT.......I hate tipping on a % basis. Do waiters at a Steak house ($200 check) and a waiter at an Ialian restaurant ($30 check) both deserve 15%? Absolutely not! Usually the Steak House restaurant waiter is snotty and thinks he/she should be tipped 20%. And, the waiters at my favorite Italian or Mexican restaurants are happy with just about every tip. So, I tip a maximum of 15% at high end restaurants and 25% or more at inexpensive restaurants. Now, when I go to my favorite ethnic restaurants I get great service. And, I totally avoid the steak houses unless I'm forced to spend a weeks (or more) food budget on one meal? Anybody else feel the same way?
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Old 02-23-2015, 02:56 PM   #80
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I don't mind tipping, waiters work hard and need to make a decent living......BUT.......I hate tipping on a % basis. Do waiters at a Steak house ($200 check) and a waiter at an Ialian restaurant ($30 check) both deserve 15%? Absolutely not! Usually the Steak House restaurant waiter is snotty and thinks he/she should be tipped 20%. And, the waiters at my favorite Italian or Mexican restaurants are happy with just about every tip. So, I tip a maximum of 15% at high end restaurants and 25% or more at inexpensive restaurants. Now, when I go to my favorite ethnic restaurants I get great service. And, I totally avoid the steak houses unless I'm forced to spend a weeks (or more) food budget on one meal? Anybody else feel the same way?
Absolutely. The labor required to serve a $5 lunch at a Mexican joint (where you would tip $0.75 to $1 based on standard guidelines) isn't 10x less valuable than the service for a $50 meal at a steakhouse. In fact, the way I eat chips and salsa, the Mexican restaurant waitstaff probably does more work keeping me salsa'd up than my steakhouse server that brings out my big slab o meat and pomme frits avec tomato puree reduction.
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