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Old 02-23-2015, 03:05 PM   #81
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For those suggesting we pay servers minimum wage and reduce/eliminate tipping. If a server is paid the $2.13/hr federal tipped minimum (most make more), and has only 3 tables, they'd need to clear $1.71/hr per table in tips to make the $7.25/hr minimum wage. Assuming a worst case average of 10% tips, each table would have to hold their check to $17.10 assuming they stay for an hour - I don't know any table service restaurant where a party of two/three/four/more could eat for $17.10. I wonder how often servers don't make minimum wage? Any of you 'eliminate tipping' supporters know?
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Old 02-23-2015, 03:10 PM   #82
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Midpack, I know I didn't mean $2.13/hr when I said minimum wage. I don't imagine others did either. I don't call what waiters get ($2.13/hr) the minimum wage. It is another animal.
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Old 02-23-2015, 03:12 PM   #83
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Midpack, I know I didn't mean $2.13/hr when I said minimum wage. I don't imagine others did either. I don't call what waiters get ($2.13/hr) the minimum wage. It is another animal.
I wasn't either. $2.13/hr is the federal tipped minimum that several posts have referred to.
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Old 02-23-2015, 03:29 PM   #84
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That's not the way things work. If these employees were paid minimum wage and deprived of Tips, the Law of Supply and Demand would take over as it does in every other free enterprise entity... in short order. (Hmmm, a Pun there?) The competition for employees would determine a wage much higher than one might imagine (IMHO) -- and pricing would adjust accordingly. The difference being that now the responsibility for (all aspects of) the Employee would be Management's and not the Customer's. "Minimum Wage" is simply a Straw Man in this discussion.
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Old 02-23-2015, 03:49 PM   #85
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That's not the way things work. If these employees were paid minimum wage and deprived of Tips, the Law of Supply and Demand would take over as it does in every other free enterprise entity... in short order. (Hmmm, a Pun there?) The competition for employees would determine a wage much higher than one might imagine (IMHO) -- and pricing would adjust accordingly.
Indeed. And once things all shake out, as you describe, are you sure servers would be better off? I don't claim to know for sure, who knows how customers would react, they could eat home more/order less, etc.
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The difference being that now the responsibility for (all aspects of) the Employee would be Management's and not the Customer's.
The customer pays either way.
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"Minimum Wage" is simply a Straw Man in this discussion.
The thread started with eliminate tipping and others have thrown in tipped full minimum wage, who knows what combination if any members intended.

Oh, and 'no mas' for me on this topic - I've had more than my fill (pun intended).
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Old 02-23-2015, 04:08 PM   #86
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Indeed. And once things all shake out, as you describe, are you sure servers would be better off?
No, I am not. (See my Signature lines.)

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The customer pays either way.).
The difference being that it would be "up front" (in the Menu) and not through some subterfuge after the fact.

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Oh, and 'no mas' for me on this topic - I've had more than my fill (pun intended).
That's unfortunate. But, I understand. This thread became much more complex than I expected.
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:15 PM   #87
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Weren't (aren't) most given food, clothing and shelter?
I think that those were benefits, not wages.
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Old 02-23-2015, 06:13 PM   #88
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I think that those were benefits, not wages.
....
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Old 02-23-2015, 06:41 PM   #89
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A few states already mandate that tipped employees receive the state minimum wage (e.g. california, washington, oregon, etc.) instead of the federal 2.13/hr. I'm not sure how long these laws have been in effect, but restaurants with no tipping are very rare and I've never personally been in one.

From what I can tell from news stories, the no tipping restaurants are generally at the high end, have a fixed service charge instead, and pay substantially more than the minimum wage.
That's news to me. I wonder why the story about, I think it was Seattle, made such headlines. Oh, wait a minute, they have $15/hr minimum wage!

Below are some states to consider how fair you want to be to servers in the $2.13 states. I'd say if you put your money where your mouth is, you'd tip 15% for good service in the states in the list, and I think, it would only be fair, to tip much more in the $2.13 states. How much more?

I would need to know the table revenue pulled in by a member of the wait staff to do the numbers right, but let's take a $40 meal for two. And say, on average, one wait staffer turns 15 tables in a 8 hour evening shift (I've never been a waiter, so if those numbers are unrealistic, please advise). Assuming a 15% average tip:

.15 tip*($40*15 tables)/8 hours = $11.25 per hour in tips
And in Washington = $9.32 per hour in wages
For a total of = 20.57 per hour.

So 20.57 - 2.13 = $18.44 per hour would have to be made-up in tips (in most states).
($18.44 * 8 hours) / ($40 * 15 tables) = .246 tip

Therefore, if you wish to be consistent and fair to all servers and you are a 15% tipper in Washington, you should be a 25% tipper in most of the rest of the US (add 5% to your normal tip). I ran the numbers assuming 10 tables an hour (vs 15...like I said, no clue about the biz). In that scenario, you'd need to almost double your tip (29%) in the $2.13 states (add 14% to your normal tip).

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Old 02-24-2015, 04:40 AM   #90
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tips are a way that folks can earn more than a job is worth, it is based really on charity.

certain jobs are just not worth paying much for . they are either things we can do for ourselves or things lots of folks can do .

i can pour my own coffess at 7-11 vs starbucks getting it for me. i can hold my own door or push my own elevator button.

so tipping was really a way of appealing to the charity of folks to earn more than the market place allows.

it has extended out over time to anyone who does a good job for you , even skilled like hair cutter ,car mechanic etc.

but it still is a way to get payed more than that job function allows.
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Old 02-24-2015, 08:33 AM   #91
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Yes, once in high school at a fast food place in Raleigh (Checkers??). I've had plenty more very pink to red "well done" burgers in sit down restaurants with table service (not that it's necessarily the waitstaff's fault). Nothing like paying $13 for a burger that isn't cooked per your specs then expecting to tip another 18% on that $13 (couldn't return it due to being in a hurry at a work lunch). At a restaurant run by a James Beard award winner, former Iron Chef contestant, etc.

I'll take a McD's burger over a medium rare masquerading as a well done any day of the week.
No I'm talking about rare, raw or frozen burgers from the big chains. Oh sure if your there they give you another one, maybe with some "special attention" paid to it.

If I get bad food at a sit down place I may say something, unless an adjustment is made to the bill I don't tip. I generally won't send it back to the kitchen. I know what happens.
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Old 02-24-2015, 08:51 AM   #92
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And how whould Taxes be handled, SS, for instance? (Specifically the employer's portion of SS.) By the employer or the employee? For that matter, how is that treated now?
Here's a source for current tax law: Publication 531 (2014), Reporting Tip Income

If everybody pays and tips by card, and there are no tip splits, the employer taxes work just like taxes on ordinary wage income.

If a server gets cash tips, it's the server's responsibility to report the tip (net of splits) to the employer. The employer then withholds the taxes on the tips from the servers wage check. Yes, that means the check can be close to zero.

My hypothetical (which I'm not pushing) wouldn't change taxes. In fact, it's already the law in a number of states. See http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm or a couple posts above.
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:00 AM   #93
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tips are a way that folks can earn more than a job is worth, it is based really on charity.
I'm pretty sure that if it were somehow possible to outlaw tipping, the wages for food servers would rise well above the current federal minimum of $2.13.

I don't know where they would settle, but call it $X. Then I'd say tips that fill the gap between $2.13 and $X are just paying for what the "job is worth". If severs earn more than $X today, then that excess could be called "charity".
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:02 AM   #94
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Americans like tipping to show that they are bosses to reward servants. .
That's not why I tip, and I'm an American.
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:14 AM   #95
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If you think of all low wage jobs as something teenagers do for spending money, then there is no issue.

If however, you think of some of the people holding these jobs as adults because for various reasons (like criminal record, no high school, etc) then its easy to see one can work full time at one of these jobs and still qualify for food stamps (taxpayer making up the difference).

It is based on the law the permits certain employers to pay less than slave wages. Some wages are so low that it would cost more to house, feed, cloth, and take medical care of a slave assuming you want your slave to live because they cost a lot of money.
There may be communication problem here.

The federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour. Employers can pay their tipped workers $2.13 only if those employees actually earn enough in tips to get up to the $7.25. If tips don't fill the gap, the employer pays the difference.
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:24 AM   #96
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T ...

Below are some states to consider how fair you want to be to servers ...

I would need to know the table revenue pulled in by a member of the wait staff to do the numbers right ....

.15 tip*($40*15 tables)/8 hours = $11.25 per hour in tips
And in Washington = $9.32 per hour in wages
For a total of = 20.57 per hour.

So 20.57 - 2.13 = $18.44 per hour would have to be made-up in tips (in most states).
($18.44 * 8 hours) / ($40 * 15 tables) = .246 tip

Therefore, if you wish to be consistent and fair to all servers and you are a 15% tipper in Washington, you should be a 25% tipper in most of the rest of the US (add 5% to your normal tip). I ran the numbers assuming 10 tables an hour (vs 15...like I said, no clue about the biz). In that scenario, you'd need to almost double your tip (29%) in the $2.13 states (add 14% to your normal tip).

...
This demonstrates the point that I (and several others) made in the previous threads on tipping - I'm a customer, looking for a meal/experience. I should not be expected to know the intricacies and politics of how the staff is compensated - that is the job of the restaurant owner/manager.

Should I tip less when the place is busy, as the staff is getting more tips/hour? If I'm the only table for an hour, do I have to pay everyone's wage for that hour in the entire place? This should not be up to me.

If the management can't keep good help, then they will suffer as people go elsewhere. Don't ask me to judge your employees and their compensation - that is your business, not mine. Serve me food, period.

I get great (and bad) service from businesses that don't rely on tips. People are kidding themselves if they think tips are really affecting their service in most cases. Between the tip sharing that many places do, and the fact that the tip is after the meal. Are they really going to remember you the next time you come in, maybe months later? Maybe you get a different server, maybe that server you had last time is off that day? Maybe if they do remember, they might think - wow, I need to make sure I take care of this person, maybe last time the low tip was because they thought they got poor service, I need to step up my game? Or, they always give a good tip, doesn't seem to make much difference if I go all out or not? I think it could work both ways, and I may never know which.

I think there is almost zero correlation between tip and service in most cases.

It could be different in a business where you see the same person time and time again (like a hair stylist for some people?), and have an actual 'relationship' - there the tip might mean something. Even there I'm curious - what would a hair stylist do (assuming you make an appointment with a specific person each time, like DW does), if you gave a 10% tip versus a 25% tip (I'm assuming 15-20% is typical?)? Would you get better/worse service the next time?

Funny thing is, the people that I have that sort of 'relationship' with, are places that don't traditionally accept tips (AFAIK). My dental assistant (they can certainly make a difference in your experience if they are careful and take time when they need to, and learn where you are sensitive or need special care), and car mechanics.

No, I think tipping is just all upside-down and backwards, with no redeeming quality whatsoever. I think for some it's a 'feel good' activity - 'I tip well for these poor hard working people' - but if tipping were eliminated, supply/demand would still provide essentially the same compensation for these people, so that's meaningless.

And since I've gone this far, I'll mention that I know someone who often will talk about how they just round up to 20%, and these places that automatically add 18% are just screwing themselves.... well one time we had dinner together, and I saw their bill with the tip on it - they either are poor at math, or liars (and the service was fine)! And their poor math just coincidentally left them on the low side, not the high side. Funny how that works.

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Old 02-24-2015, 09:31 AM   #97
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If everybody pays and tips by card, and there are no tip splits, the employer taxes work just like taxes on ordinary wage income.
If I get exceptionally good service, I'll often put a regular tip on the card, and the bonus tip in cash. That opens up the opportunity for the server to get every dime of the excess...not split or reduced.
Quote:

My hypothetical (which I'm not pushing) wouldn't change taxes. In fact, it's already the law in a number of states. See http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm or a couple posts above.
I see a phone app on the horizon for people who travel to many states...takes into consideration the above complex data (the link), and presents a consistent, fair tip. The user enters the non-tip total, then selects a perceived level of service (excellent, ok, poor, etc) and depending on the state's wage laws, would calculate a tip consistent across all states (ie a lower amount in the high wage states and a higher amount in the low wage states).
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:44 AM   #98
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If I get exceptionally good service, I'll often put a regular tip on the card, and the bonus tip in cash. That opens up the opportunity for the server to get every dime of the excess...not split or reduced.
You're advocating tax-evasion then?

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I see a phone app on the horizon for people who travel to many states...takes into consideration the above complex data (the link), and presents a consistent, fair tip. The user enters the non-tip total, then selects a perceived level of service (excellent, ok, poor, etc) and depending on the state's wage laws, would calculate a tip consistent across all states (ie a lower amount in the high wage states and a higher amount in the low wage states).
See ERD50's response above.
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Old 02-24-2015, 10:13 AM   #99
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You're advocating tax-evasion then?
Really I'd like to buy them a cup of coffee and ask them about their dog. That would be a gift, free of intervention by an employer and/or government. Since it's not realistic in many cases, I let them buy their own cup of coffee. I'm not especially interested in adding to govenment coffers or random employees that I didn't witness doing an exceptional job. Those entities will get their portion of the credit card tip, and they might, depending on the actions of the waiter (not me), get part of the bonus.
Quote:
See ERD50's response above.
I am completely on board with all of that. It shouldn't be the customer's job, but what choice do we have? To never tip is "bad", to tip 15 or 20% if you are in a location where the sever is making $15/hr is " bad" (unfair, and not good to the pocketbook since the menu prices already include the tip, so to speak).

Since patrons probably don't adjust for wage laws, I'd hate to be a restaurant owner near the border of, say, Minnesota ($8) and Wisconsin ($2.13). An entry-level server could get a $5/hr raise by driving over the state line!
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Old 02-24-2015, 10:17 AM   #100
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This demonstrates the point that I (and several others) made in the previous threads on tipping - I'm a customer, looking for a meal/experience. I should not be expected to know the intricacies and politics of how the staff is compensated - that is the job of the restaurant owner/manager.

Should I tip less when the place is busy, as the staff is getting more tips/hour? If I'm the only table for an hour, do I have to pay everyone's wage for that hour in the entire place? This should not be up to me.

If the management can't keep good help, then they will suffer as people go elsewhere. Don't ask me to judge your employees and their compensation - that is your business, not mine. Serve me food, period.

I get great (and bad) service from businesses that don't rely on tips. People are kidding themselves if they think tips are really affecting their service in most cases. Between the tip sharing that many places do, and the fact that the tip is after the meal. Are they really going to remember you the next time you come in, maybe months later? Maybe you get a different server, maybe that server you had last time is off that day? Maybe if they do remember, they might think - wow, I need to make sure I take care of this person, maybe last time the low tip was because they thought they got poor service, I need to step up my game? Or, they always give a good tip, doesn't seem to make much difference if I go all out or not? I think it could work both ways, and I may never know which.

I think there is almost zero correlation between tip and service in most cases.

It could be different in a business where you see the same person time and time again (like a hair stylist for some people?), and have an actual 'relationship' - there the tip might mean something. Even there I'm curious - what would a hair stylist do (assuming you make an appointment with a specific person each time, like DW does), if you gave a 10% tip versus a 25% tip (I'm assuming 15-20% is typical?)? Would you get better/worse service the next time?

Funny thing is, the people that I have that sort of 'relationship' with, are places that don't traditionally accept tips (AFAIK). My dental assistant (they can certainly make a difference in your experience if they are careful and take time when they need to, and learn where you are sensitive or need special care), and car mechanics.

No, I think tipping is just all upside-down and backwards, with no redeeming quality whatsoever. I think for some it's a 'feel good' activity - 'I tip well for these poor hard working people' - but if tipping were eliminated, supply/demand would still provide essentially the same compensation for these people, so that's meaningless.

And since I've gone this far, I'll mention that I know someone who often will talk about how they just round up to 20%, and these places that automatically add 18% are just screwing themselves.... well one time we had dinner together, and I saw their bill with the tip on it - they either are poor at math, or liars (and the service was fine)! And their poor math just coincidentally left them on the low side, not the high side. Funny how that works.

-ERD50
+1. Tipping is just dumb. Waiters are paid to serve food and be courteous. If they don't serve the food promptly and courteously they should be fired. Why does the baggage handler at the airport need financial incentive to place my bag nicely on the conveyor belt or not put it on the wrong belt and send it to the wrong city? If he cant do his job correctly he should be fired. Who decided which jobs need tips and which don't? I worked as a police officer for 24 years. How come I didn't get tipped when I did an above avg job? How come a hair dresser gets tips and the guy who helps you find an item at Home Depot doesn't?

Just pay all of those people a fair wage and be done with it. Yes, a restaurant meal will cost more. So what? The good workers will thrive and may work towards a promotion just like other occupations that don't get tips. The bad workers will languish behind or get fired just like other occupations that don't get tips.
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