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Old 02-25-2015, 08:38 AM   #121
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Wow 6 pages. I hate the whole tipping thing. The price ought to reflect the food and service provided. You don't tip your dental hygenist, car repair person, etc.

Tipping is going down. Nobody tips the airport shuttle bus driver anymore. People use to leave tips in hotel rooms, cleaners tell me nobody does anymore.

Because of tipping, food waiters are overpaid. That should not be more than a $12-14/hour job in society. After $3/hour paid by restaurant, they should only get $10/hour in tips -- all they need to do is support $66/hour in restaurant sales to get that.

Of course they get a lot more than that - that's great if they can get it. But I don't appreciate this societal "obligation cr_p" that patrons who do not support the overpaying are low lifes.....
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Old 02-25-2015, 08:44 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Delawaredave5 View Post
......................
Because of tipping, food waiters are overpaid. That should not be more than a $12-14/hour job in society. After $3/hour paid by restaurant, they should only get $10/hour in tips -- all they need to do is support $66/hour in restaurant sales to get that.

Of course they get a lot more than that - that's great if they can get it. But I don't appreciate this societal "obligation cr_p" that patrons who do not support the overpaying are low lifes.....
Good point. Most the really wealthy people that I know, probably including most of the ERs here, were waiters because it is such a lucrative endeavor. It just galls me when I see all those new BMWs and Mercedes parked in the employee lot at my local diner.
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Old 02-25-2015, 09:33 AM   #123
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I wonder if tipping is one reason fast food is so popular in the US compared to many other countries, relative to sit-down restaurants? I doubt it's a huge factor, but it probably plays into things a bit. Apparently many customers are uncomfortable with the whole idea of tipping. That--plus "the price on the menu is what you'll pay" factor, may influence some people to go to a fast food spot rather than being served. Maybe there's a market niche for a moderately-priced sit down restaurant with a well-publicized "no tipping, please" policy. I'd go there.
I like the "one step up from McD's" model. In my part of the country, that's Panera Bread. Nicer atmosphere, "better" food, real plates, but you do your own counter pickup and bus your own table. They probably have a tip jar on the counter, but I ignore it.

I would certainly try a table service restaurant that uses the "no tipping please, because we already pay a decent wage" policy, but I would like that service card I mentioned.
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Old 02-25-2015, 10:08 AM   #124
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One place where I've seen tipping work is with bartenders. I will usually tip $1 for a drink if it is a beer or a standard drink and I'm there for the first time. However, if the bartender is someone I see all the time; is talkative and nice; and provides special attention and service then I tip $2 per drink.

I've had bartenders that gave me free bottled water or drinks on occasion because I'm a regular. On guy kept a martini glass in the freezer just for me. He would see me paying the club cover charge at the door and have my martini made and waiting for me by the time I got to the bar.
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Old 02-25-2015, 10:23 AM   #125
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But I don't appreciate this societal "obligation cr_p" that patrons who do not support the overpaying are low lifes.....
well that may be a bit harsh

being a big tipper has it's advantages, especially if you are a regular
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Old 02-25-2015, 11:44 AM   #126
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I worked as a waitstaff at a family restaurant while going to college. A lot of things have probably changed (more people paid cash then rather than credit card), but in California they passed a law at that time that mandated a minimum of 8% of a server's total food and beverage tab was taxable income, regardless if declared tips were less than that. So if someone left little (a few little old ladies thought $0.50 per check was perfectly adequate), it was worse than working for free, it was money out of my paycheck.

Should tipping be eliminated? As long as there are other restaurants that allow tipping, it would be hard for a business to retained quality employees because the higher income they need to provide would result in higher food prices that customers may not be willing to pay.
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Old 02-25-2015, 12:15 PM   #127
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I like the "one step up from McD's" model. In my part of the country, that's Panera Bread. Nicer atmosphere, "better" food, real plates, but you do your own counter pickup and bus your own table. They probably have a tip jar on the counter, but I ignore it.

I would certainly try a table service restaurant that uses the "no tipping please, because we already pay a decent wage" policy, but I would like that service card I mentioned.
Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never seen a tip jar at Panera. However, I have tipped there, directly to the sandwich maker. This was someone who knew my requests and always had special things ready for me without asking. It was only occasional, and I almost felt like a criminal doing it.

In away though, that's what tipping should be, something you really want to do. But it isn't that way, hence this really long and interesting discussion.

Someone else mentioned that perhaps some people like casual service over table service because of the tipping issue. COUNT ME IN on that. I'm really starting to disdain the whole tipping thing, especially since I've gotten some really lousy table service of late.
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Old 02-25-2015, 12:35 PM   #128
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I would certainly try a table service restaurant that uses the "no tipping please, because we already pay a decent wage" policy.
Name removed from quote because this has been said so many times by others on this thread, and it's largely unfounded. Most of you don't really have any idea what servers make, or how many are making a happily making a "decent wage" already with the tipping status quo. If you do the simple math, you'll see it's pretty hard to work in a restaurant and not make well more than the $7.25/hr minimum wage - do you really think servers would stay working in restaurants if they were only making anything like $7.25/hr?

Based on the media at least, the food service workers who are most angry about their wages are fast food workers who already make the full minimum wage (vs tipped minimum wage) or more, they're pushing for $15/hr. If you are in support of a decent wage for fast food workers, tipping has little or nothing to do with.

I wonder how many members here are protesting on behalf of workers, when the reality is they're just intimidated by the mechanics of tipping, and they aren't even considering how it might impact servers.

If you have some facts, flame away...but the outright conjecture in many posts in this thread is amazing.

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Old 02-25-2015, 12:45 PM   #129
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I said earlier that tipping should be eliminated and servers should be paid a fair wage. I don't know what a fair wage for a server is but its certainly more than minimum wage.

Why cant a server be just like any other job? Eliminate tipping and give them an hourly wage that is determined by the market place. I have no idea why that concept seems so radical. The majority of jobs work that way. I see no reason why it wouldn't work for servers. Obviously the price of restaurant food would rise and I would have no problem with that.
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:08 PM   #130
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Name removed from quote because this has been said so many times by others on this thread, and it's largely unfounded. Most of you don't really have any idea what servers make, or how many are making a happily making a "decent wage" already with the tipping status quo.
For me, the attraction of going to a "no tipping" restaurant isn't about whether the workers are making enough per hour. Maybe they'll make more at these places, maybe they'll make less. But I think the attraction is putting the onus of compensating employees back on the management, just where it is for 99% of other employees.
My dining experience is influenced by many other things than the waitstaff. The cooks obviously have a huge impact, but also the way the restaurant looks, cleanliness, portions, etc. I've got no idea how a tip gets split and no control over it. A competent manager/owner should take everything into account and put the resources/compensation where it does the most good, and build the costs into the price of the meal--maybe waitstaff is overpaid under the present model (i.e. there are lots of great, qualified people applying for every job), but it's darn hard to get good cooks. If there were no tipping, the total I paid to management could be more effectively used to address any imbalances. As it is now, the food prices have to go up to pay for competent cooks and I get to keep overpaying the waitstaff.
All that said, I don't have a big problem with tipping (except for the tax avoidance angle, which I think I'm addressing effectively by puting things on a charge card). But apparently a lot of people do, and that is a market niche that might be exploited by a savvy owner.
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:11 PM   #131
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I said earlier that tipping should be eliminated and servers should be paid a fair wage. I don't know what a fair wage for a server is but its certainly more than minimum wage.

Why cant a server be just like any other job? Eliminate tipping and give them an hourly wage that is determined by the market place. I have no idea why that concept seems so radical. The majority of jobs work that way. I see no reason why it wouldn't work for servers. Obviously the price of restaurant food would rise and I would have no problem with that.
Do you know what a server makes today, what is the range for various levels of restaurants (casual to upscale)? And how does that compare to other jobs with equivalent skill sets? Since you invoke the "market place" - if servers weren't satisfied with their compensation (vs other jobs/careers), wouldn't they seek other jobs/careers? There wouldn't be many servers if their wages were completely unfair.

If servers are unhappy, I am sure they will make it known the same way any other worker does, voice, leaving, whatever.

Your making assumptions on their behalf.

So unless you actually know what servers make and what they want, your reason for eliminating tipping can't stem from supporting servers...

I wouldn't be surprised if servers end up with a different pay structure some day, but a lot of the "support" for servers here is otherwise motivated.
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:38 PM   #132
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Do you know what a server makes today, what is the range for various levels of restaurants (casual to upscale)? And how does that compare to other jobs with equivalent skill sets? Since you invoke the "market place" - if servers weren't satisfied with their compensation (vs other jobs/careers), wouldn't they seek other jobs/careers? There wouldn't be many servers if their wages were completely unfair.

If servers are unhappy, I am sure they will make it known the same way any other worker does, voice, leaving, whatever.

Your making assumptions on their behalf.

So unless you actually know what servers make and what they want, your reason for eliminating tipping can't stem from supporting servers...

I wouldn't be surprised if servers end up with a different pay structure some day, but a lot of the "support" for servers here is otherwise motivated.
I have no idea where this angle of yours is coming from.

People aren't making judgement calls about what a server makes or doesn't make - the point that I think most of us are making is that should be the manager's business - keep us out of it.

Yes, the free market will 'work' with or without tips, the servers are smart enough to look at 'total compensation'. We are just saying, let that compensation come from the people who hire and manage and fire them - not some % directly from the customer. So let's have it 'work' w/o tips.

Again, many service businesses do just fine w/o a tip structure - and their employees are also smart enough to look at 'total compensation'. I'd like to see restaurants work this way also.

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Old 02-25-2015, 01:45 PM   #133
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Midpack, I ave no idea what an avg server makes, but whatever that is, why cant they be paid that amount based on an hourly wage?

Tell all of us what makes servers any different from any other job? Why do they need tips? Why cant they be paid hourly just like a cashier at Best Buy, or a produce manager at Kroger, or the guys that helps you find a plumbing part at Home Depot?
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:46 PM   #134
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For me, the attraction of going to a "no tipping" restaurant isn't about whether the workers are making enough per hour. Maybe they'll make more at these places, maybe they'll make less. But I think the attraction is putting the onus of compensating employees back on the management, just where it is for 99% of other employees.
My dining experience is influenced by many other things than the waitstaff. The cooks obviously have a huge impact, but also the way the restaurant looks, cleanliness, portions, etc. I've got no idea how a tip gets split and no control over it. A competent manager/owner should take everything into account and put the resources/compensation where it does the most good, and build the costs into the price of the meal--maybe waitstaff is overpaid under the present model (i.e. there are lots of great, qualified people applying for every job), but it's darn hard to get good cooks. If there were no tipping, the total I paid to management could be more effectively used to address any imbalances. As it is now, the food prices have to go up to pay for competent cooks and I get to keep overpaying the waitstaff.
All that said, I don't have a big problem with tipping (except for the tax avoidance angle, which I think I'm addressing effectively by puting things on a charge card). But apparently a lot of people do, and that is a market niche that might be exploited by a savvy owner.
I have no problem whatsoever with your POV.

It's all the folks who claim
  • 'pay servers a living wage',
  • 'servers should get minimum wage (vs tipped minimum wage)' or
  • 'eliminate tipping'
WITHOUT
  • knowing anything whatsoever about what servers currently make when all is said and done, and not bothering to do the math to see how easy it is to make well over the full minimum wage,
  • what tipped servers think about the tipping status quo or
  • thinking thru what increase wages, eliminating tipping and various combinations thereof might do to servers wages. Assuming they will be better off - on what basis?
Again, the only food service workers I've seen vocally pushing for higher wages are fast food workers - who don't get tips in the first place! I don't see an outcry from tipped servers, aside from tip pooling that is probably being abused in some places.

And restaurant management certainly plays a role in handling servers, assuming they aren't because of customer tipping is a convenient sweeping generalization and mostly nonsense.

Again, a lot of the protesting here is thinly disguised as concern for servers, when it's not...
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:59 PM   #135
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IMHO, people in traditional server jobs (like a restaurant server) ought to be upset that tipping is being spread to many other positions. It's giving tipping a bad feeling for many people.

I find myself really resenting the tip jars setup all over the place, when the people are doing very little but filling an order at a counter. Often I even have to get my own drink and refill my own coffee. That is not service.

The hotel chain that is putting tip envelopes in rooms, is, IMHO, simple admitting that they are not paying their worker a descent wage and they want their customers to take on that responsibility. That is outrageous!
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Old 02-25-2015, 02:10 PM   #136
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...
Should tipping be eliminated? As long as there are other restaurants that allow tipping, it would be hard for a business to retained quality employees because the higher income they need to provide would result in higher food prices that customers may not be willing to pay.
I think you left a term out of your equation.

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Old 02-25-2015, 03:34 PM   #137
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I have no idea where this angle of yours is coming from.
I worked as a server long ago, and we eat out twice a week, have friends who own restaurants, and we know a little about the industry - though I am not claiming to be an expert/insider.

Quote:
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People aren't making judgement calls about what a server makes or doesn't make - the point that I think most of us are making is that should be the manager's business - keep us out of it.
Some, NOT ALL, most certainly are!

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Originally Posted by ERD50
Yes, the free market will 'work' with or without tips, the servers are smart enough to look at 'total compensation'. We are just saying, let that compensation come from the people who hire and manage and fire them - not some % directly from the customer. So let's have it 'work' w/o tips.
Compensation for servers and everyone else will come from customers no matter what...what other revenue source is there in the end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Again, many service businesses do just fine w/o a tip structure - and their employees are also smart enough to look at 'total compensation'. I'd like to see restaurants work this way also.
What if non fast food servers like the status quo, and the transition to 'eliminate tipping' reduces server total compensation? Many here are just assuming servers are underpaid or unhappy with the current structure, without any apparent basis...

That said, there are many valid, thoughtful POV's here - very different than mine. Unfortunately there are also quite a few blissfully ignorant or falsely motivated POV's too, those are the ones I am attempting to call out. But I am beyond tired of this thread, I've already over participated...
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Old 02-25-2015, 04:06 PM   #138
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Name removed from quote because this has been said so many times by others on this thread, and it's largely unfounded. Most of you don't really have any idea what servers make, or how many are making a happily making a "decent wage" already with the tipping status quo.
I'm the person who said that.

I don't think we communicated well. I wasn't saying that servers are currently "underpaid". Or that my interest in a no tipping policy is driven by some belief that servers would average more without tipping.

I was saying that if an owner wanted to try a "no tipping please" policy, that owner would have to increase wages above the current level.
(new wages) = (old wages) + (old tips).

If that owner wants to get customers, and recognizes that people look at menu prices and have some sense of "fair wage", he/she will almost certainly have to address that issue directly with some sort of signal to the customers. Somehow, that message is:
'No tipping' doesn't mean your server is starving. It means that some of that extra price on your menu is going to your server."

Maybe I used too few words to get that across.
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Old 02-25-2015, 04:35 PM   #139
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There may be communication problem here.

The federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour. Employers can pay their tipped workers $2.13 only if those employees actually earn enough in tips to get up to the $7.25. If tips don't fill the gap, the employer pays the difference.
You are correct, I didn't know that.
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Old 02-25-2015, 06:41 PM   #140
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We don't eat out much because we can make everything at home. Even with a coupon it is not worth it. When we do go out I have decided to tip only 10% where I used to tip 20%. While visiting my dad in California we always ate at his favorite place, Home Town Buffet. He paid for it but it made me ill thinking how much it cost compared to how much he ate even with his senior discount - he is 93. Drinks use to be included... and with my allergies there was a lot I could not eat.
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