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Old 02-01-2015, 11:18 AM   #81
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So a child molester who got out after say four years should be given a job in daycare? C'mon, gimme a break.

You almost had a point but i think the way you worded it is a shame.
DLDS never said anything about child molesters and daycare.

I think the way you worded your post is a shame, and quite rude to DLDS.

It is possible to disagree about a subject without being disagreeable.
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Old 02-01-2015, 11:24 AM   #82
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+1 Our company is in desperate need of welders and machinists. They pay solid, middle-class, salaries. We can't find them because HS students in our area are told that college is the only path to success.

Ah, my biggest compliant about the whole educational system ( being an educator myself). We have lost sight of the whole process. The process shouldn't be all about performance scores, ACT, and college. The whole purpose of even spending money on education should be solely about providing a clear path to a job to support oneself which in turn provides taxpayers to help provide services, not take from them.
I have not seen it as directly as "go to college or you are a loser", but the other pathways are not as articulated to them, or vocational training is off site, which deters students from attending. Plus there are few onsite advocates for these vocational programs.
But what do I know. I am a knuckle dragger that still believes memorization is a key learning concept in acquiring concentration skills and a few well placed swats on the rear makes classroom learning more focused for all... Including the recipient.


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Old 02-01-2015, 01:35 PM   #83
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Ah, my biggest compliant about the whole educational system ( being an educator myself). We have lost sight of the whole process. The process shouldn't be all about performance scores, ACT, and college. The whole purpose of even spending money on education should be solely about providing a clear path to a job to support oneself which in turn provides taxpayers to help provide services, not take from them.
I have not seen it as directly as "go to college or you are a loser", but the other pathways are not as articulated to them, or vocational training is off site, which deters students from attending. Plus there are few onsite advocates for these vocational programs.
But what do I know. I am a knuckle dragger that still believes memorization is a key learning concept in acquiring concentration skills and a few well placed swats on the rear makes classroom learning more focused for all... Including the recipient.


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Old 02-01-2015, 03:03 PM   #84
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My FIL gets a large portion of his employees from either jail release programs or hire them when they are released. I asked how many he's hired over the years and how many have given him grief (theft, rearrested, crime against the business, etc.) And he said over the last 10 years, he's probably hired about 100 of them and have only had 2 arrested on the property and most worked for him with no issues for 6 months or longer.

He's one of the few employers in town that will give second chances and they seek him out and are grateful for the job. Not only to mention, the jobs are in concrete construction...nothing that's very easy, especially in the summer when temperatures can exceed 100 degrees for many days at a time.

Sent from my mobile device so please excuse grammatical errors.
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Old 02-01-2015, 03:16 PM   #85
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Well, those with criminal records could band together and push state legislatures and Congress to pass laws that would put limits on such employer discretion. Somehow I don't think they will.
Of course not. Where would a bunch of convicted criminals get enough money to buy the votes of enough of the unconvicted criminals Congress people to get the laws changed? I guess they could sell drugs and rob people for it.
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Old 02-01-2015, 03:17 PM   #86
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My FIL gets a large portion of his employees from either jail release programs or hire them when they are released. I asked how many he's hired over the years and how many have given him grief (theft, rearrested, crime against the business, etc.) And he said over the last 10 years, he's probably hired about 100 of them and have only had 2 arrested on the property and most worked for him with no issues for 6 months or longer.

He's one of the few employers in town that will give second chances and they seek him out and are grateful for the job. Not only to mention, the jobs are in concrete construction...nothing that's very easy, especially in the summer when temperatures can exceed 100 degrees for many days at a time.

Sent from my mobile device so please excuse grammatical errors.

Good for your FIL. I am not referring to child molesters or murders of that ilk. But today's society with background checks and such, you cannot outrun your young adult transgressions. When I was growing up in "redneckville" I couldn't tell you how many would do dumb things such as petty theft or DWI. But back then many turned 25 or so and realized it was time to grow up get married and raise a family. They could put the past in the past and move on to be a contributing member of society.
For less serious offenses I have always thought the best way was a good public flogging, then wipe their record clean if they stayed out of trouble for a determined amount of time. It gives them a second chance, a painful reminder of the mistake, and saves the tax payer all the expenses. I guess the beating thing has been outlawed for quite a while, so I'm not holding my breath for that to be reinstated.



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Old 02-01-2015, 03:29 PM   #87
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+1 Our company is in desperate need of welders and machinists. They pay solid, middle-class, salaries. We can't find them because HS students in our area are told that college is the only path to success.
Are you saying that your company is offering partially paid training (say apprenticeships or apprenticeship-like programs) to high school grads and none are accepting? Rather they are all going off to non-technical, non-vocational colleges....... ?


Or are you saying your company is looking for fully trained, experienced welders and machinists and the supply is short?


It does seem that over the past few decades, American industry has gone out of it's way to abandon apprenticeships, partnerships with local technical and vocational schools and similar.


Our local jr college has a large program dealing with technical and vocational subjects. (1000's of full and part time students.) The companies that are able to recruit the brightest and best prepared of the graduates are those that partnered with the jr college and offered part time jobs, flexible hours, some OTJ training, etc., while the students were in school.
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Old 02-01-2015, 03:41 PM   #88
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Good for your FIL. I am not referring to child molesters or murders of that ilk. But today's society with background checks and such, you cannot outrun your young adult transgressions. When I was growing up in "redneckville" I couldn't tell you how many would do dumb things such as petty theft or DWI. But back then many turned 25 or so and realized it was time to grow up get married and raise a family. They could put the past in the past and move on to be a contributing member of society.
For less serious offenses I have always thought the best way was a good public flogging, then wipe their record clean if they stayed out of trouble for a determined amount of time. It gives them a second chance, a painful reminder of the mistake, and saves the tax payer all the expenses. I guess the beating thing has been outlawed for quite a while, so I'm not holding my breath for that to be reinstated.



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You kind of lost me at the flogging, I'd probably substitute work programs or public service for those willing to do so, but otherwise I agree with you on the second chance.

Even if not for charitable purposes, it is in society's and especially taxpayers best interests to have viable career paths available to those with criminal records. Otherwise what choice do they have but to be on welfare or use criminal activities for food and money?

Rehabilitation programs can cut prisons cost, report says - The Orange County Register

"New programs and policies for inmates and ex-cons could eliminate the need for as many as 48,000 prison beds, the report said. The experts who developed the study estimated that could save California taxpayers $561 million to $684 million per year – about 5 percent of the total amount proposed for next year's corrections budget.

More money spent on education, job training, drug treatment, anger management and other programs would lead to less money needed for incarceration because fewer paroled inmates would get in trouble again and return to prison, the report said."
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Old 02-01-2015, 04:34 PM   #89
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You kind of lost me at the flogging, I'd probably substitute work programs or public service for those willing to do so, but otherwise I agree with you on the second chance.

Even if not for charitable purposes, it is in society's and especially taxpayers best interests to have viable career paths available to those with criminal records. Otherwise what choice do they have but to be on welfare or use criminal activities for food and money?

Rehabilitation programs can cut prisons cost, report says - The Orange County Register

"New programs and policies for inmates and ex-cons could eliminate the need for as many as 48,000 prison beds, the report said. The experts who developed the study estimated that could save California taxpayers $561 million to $684 million per year – about 5 percent of the total amount proposed for next year's corrections budget.

More money spent on education, job training, drug treatment, anger management and other programs would lead to less money needed for incarceration because fewer paroled inmates would get in trouble again and return to prison, the report said."

Although I am a "law and order" and "pain brings conformity" type of guy, my attitudes have softened quite a bit from watching Lock Up for so many years. If we are going to continue with the idea of "paid ones debt to society" upon release there has to be a better way.
It is amazing how many of the prisoners (crazy's, molesters and murders aside) once they get off the drugs in prison truly want to change. But once they hit the streets and the avenues for change are quickly blocked, they will always fall back to what got them in jail, and inevitably return. Only the fortunate ex-cons with strong families and money who will assist are really the ones who can keep from going back.


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Old 02-01-2015, 05:40 PM   #90
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+1 Our company is in desperate need of welders and machinists. They pay solid, middle-class, salaries. We can't find them because HS students in our area are told that college is the only path to success.
If you search for Associates degree in Welding you find a lot of entries from various community colleges. It also turns out that a few schools offer 4 year degrees in welding. It may be that the push in HS is to purely white collar college degrees. One should ask the local guidance councilors if they are aware of the 2 year programs, as they do qualify as college.
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Emergency savings dangerously thin even for upper-income earners according to...
Old 02-01-2015, 07:00 PM   #91
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Emergency savings dangerously thin even for upper-income earners according to...

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Originally Posted by youbet View Post
Are you saying that your company is offering partially paid training (say apprenticeships or apprenticeship-like programs) to high school grads and none are accepting? Rather they are all going off to non-technical, non-vocational colleges....... ?


Or are you saying your company is looking for fully trained, experienced welders and machinists and the supply is short?


It does seem that over the past few decades, American industry has gone out of it's way to abandon apprenticeships, partnerships with local technical and vocational schools and similar.


Our local jr college has a large program dealing with technical and vocational subjects. (1000's of full and part time students.) The companies that are able to recruit the brightest and best prepared of the graduates are those that partnered with the jr college and offered part time jobs, flexible hours, some OTJ training, etc., while the students were in school.

We're looking for workers that have made enough of a commitment to get some training in school. Our HS tech programs that existed when I was a kid have been eliminated. The community college programs don't have demand to supply the need.

We actually do support the local community college program, but there simply aren't enough kids interested. We'd be happy to work with someone that has at least a start.

What we've seen first hand is a diminished respect for the trades which I find sad. The easy answer is to blame industry. Sorry, not the villain this time...


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Old 02-02-2015, 12:01 PM   #92
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We're looking for workers that have made enough of a commitment to get some training in school. Our HS tech programs that existed when I was a kid have been eliminated. The community college programs don't have demand to supply the need.

We actually do support the local community college program, but there simply aren't enough kids interested. We'd be happy to work with someone that has at least a start.

What we've seen first hand is a diminished respect for the trades which I find sad. The easy answer is to blame industry. Sorry, not the villain this time...


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So what is the solution to making the trades more attractive? Perhaps potential employers should advertise what they're offering for the trades? Young people given a choice between being a poor barista versus a comfortable welder, plumber, carpenter, etc... might actually realize the errors of their ways.


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Old 02-02-2015, 01:12 PM   #93
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Back to the OP ... when I was younger, the going thought on emergency $$$ was 6 months of living expense. Mostly, it was for someone losing his job and finding a replacement job within 6 months. 2008 changed that. Many, especially, older workers couldn't find a job in 6 months. Some never found one and were forced to retire.
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Old 02-02-2015, 02:40 PM   #94
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Back to the OP ... when I was younger, the going thought on emergency $$$ was 6 months of living expense. Mostly, it was for someone losing his job and finding a replacement job within 6 months. 2008 changed that. Many, especially, older workers couldn't find a job in 6 months. Some never found one and were forced to retire.

Another one that I've heard from HR type folks is figure that a job search will take one month for every $10K in salary. So, figure on a year for a $120K/year job.
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Old 02-02-2015, 03:10 PM   #95
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So what is the solution to making the trades more attractive? Perhaps potential employers should advertise what they're offering for the trades? Young people given a choice between being a poor barista versus a comfortable welder, plumber, carpenter, etc... might actually realize the errors of their ways.
Actually we do exactly that, but it falls mostly on deaf ears. Like it or not, there is now a stigma regarding a lack of a college education.

At the risky of prompting Porky, I think the solution is an acknowledgement at the high schools that not everyone is meant for college and that the trades are a great option for a young person who has the natural abilities required. I've personally heard students told that "you can do better", meaning the trades are a unattractive choice compared to any college program. We need partners in our message, otherwise we're fighting a losing battle against educators and parents (which is the case right now). This mindset may not be the norm everywhere, but it is in our area. I'm happy to take the heat when our business doesn't live up to our responsibilities. That's not the case on this one.

Sorry, the thread got sort of hijacked. I'll step off of my stump and send everyone back to the OP's original topic now...
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Old 02-02-2015, 03:22 PM   #96
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I don't mind the hijack. My original post really was more about the current mentalities floating around rather than the more boring nuts and bolts of cash on hand and emergency reserves.

I agree with Willers's assessment. There is a real stigma toward trade jobs in many professional/white collar families that I'm around. Too stupid to go to college, not smart enough to hold a hard job, et cetera.

But there's also a lot of stigma toward professional jobs in many trade/blue collar families that I'm around. Lazy people, dishonest, making money while trampling regular working stiffs, et cetera.

One of the ways I ended up in my area was because it has parts of both trade/blue collar and professional/white collar work. But boy, there's a lot of resentment and disapprove going both ways! Bottom line is, everyone will be better off if kids and young adults are given honest guidance into areas they are good at or can become good at.

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So what is the solution to making the trades more attractive? Perhaps potential employers should advertise what they're offering for the trades? Young people given a choice between being a poor barista versus a comfortable welder, plumber, carpenter, etc... might actually realize the errors of their ways.
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Actually we do exactly that, but it falls mostly on deaf ears. Like it or not, there is now a stigma regarding a lack of a college education.

At the risky of prompting Porky, I think the solution is an acknowledgement at the high schools that not everyone is meant for college and that the trades are a great option for a young person who has the natural abilities required. I've personally heard students told that "you can do better", meaning the trades are a unattractive choice compared to any college program. We need partners in our message, otherwise we're fighting a losing battle against educators and parents (which is the case right now). This mindset may not be the norm everywhere, but it is in our area. I'm happy to take the heat when our business doesn't live up to our responsibilities. That's not the case on this one.

Sorry, the thread got sort of hijacked. I'll step off of my stump and send everyone back to the OP's original topic now...
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Old 02-02-2015, 05:46 PM   #97
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The richest guy at my 50th high school reunion was a retired longshoreman - one of my high school drinking buddies. Did a stint in the paratroopers(101st) while I went off to JC and then 4 yr college.

heh heh heh - he recently bought a modest 50 ft yacht. My personal best was a 14 ft rowboat with a used Merc outboard.
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:59 AM   #98
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I like this guy.

Nice
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:22 AM   #99
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I only wonder if young writers think they've discovered something, or editors make young writers rehash the topic when there's nothing else to write about. Her turn (pic below) this time, senior, really?
Well, she graduated from Columbia's graduate school in 1997, at that time she was probably 23, it is 18 years later. I would guess she is at least 41 or 42... I would think that is enough time to be a senior writer. Or did you mean senior as in over 65?
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:53 AM   #100
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Wouldn't "for any job, no matter what the crime" include child molesters and day care jobs?

If you wish to clarify/adjust your statement, that's fine, but why jump on cooch96 and accuse him of putting words in your mouth?

-ERD50
The actual quote was "It is a shame to make that a life sentence of unemployment for any job, no matter what the crime, no matter how long ago, especially those actively looking for work."

He did not say that every criminal should be able to work at every job. I read it to say that "no matter what your crime, not matter how long ago it was, it is a shame that you have a lifeltime of unemployment."

It was never said that a convict should be eligible "for any job, no matter what the crime"
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