Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
End of Year Decisions
Old 12-15-2011, 12:20 PM   #1
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
End of Year Decisions

Well, here it is the end of year.......what to do, what to do.....

I have VTIAX , Vanguard Total International Index Fund......I've lost 9k on it this year..
Do I sell it as I'm going to need losses for tax return....do I sell it before dividends are paid....do I keep it and sell something else?

I guess what I'm asking is 'what are you doing with international investments'?
__________________

__________________
txtrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-15-2011, 02:26 PM   #2
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,862
Might be about the same either way, before or after dividends. Assuming the price decreases in line with the dividend amount, you will have a larger capital loss after the dividend. However you will have the gain of the dividend itself. If it is a 15% qualified dividend and you are paying 15% capital gains it'll be a wash in terms of total taxes, though you should have a little extra capital loss to use. If your CG tax rate or the dividend rate is different, than you might be better selling before or after the dividend.

I'm just leaving everything alone this year.
__________________

__________________
Animorph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 02:55 PM   #3
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
RockyMtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: North Scottsdale
Posts: 1,231
I'm going to dump a good portion of my international funds and use the losses to offset some gains. Will buy back the funds I like in 31 days or may just sit on the cash until the folks in Europe get their act together. Will probably do it after distributions.
__________________
FIRE'D in July 2009 at 51...Never look back!
RockyMtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 03:11 PM   #4
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,888
I'll probably end up buying more. Depending on how my asset allocations for the international portion shapes up. I'll do the percent calculations at the year end. If the percentage I have is low, I'll buy more to get that percentage back up.
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 08:22 PM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,428
I'll stand pat. Unfortunately I have plenty of capital loss carryforwards.
__________________
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 09:11 PM   #6
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,862
One reason I'm not doing any tax loss harvesting is that if CG tax rates increase I'd rather leave the tax basis where it is. No sense getting 15% credit today and pay 20% a few years later. I should be fully into my taxable account sell-down and Roth conversion mode in about a year, so I won't have a really long time to make the tax savings pay off.
__________________
Animorph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 10:25 PM   #7
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animorph
I'm just leaving everything alone this year.
+1. I'm 40% non-us.

T
__________________
Tif7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 11:08 PM   #8
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,890
Me too. After rebalancing my international funds are supposed to represent only 13% of my portfolio, and I haven't changed that percentage.

When I rebalance in a couple of weeks and have to buy more of my international equity fund, I'll be buying low. I keep telling myself that.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 11:41 PM   #9
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 154
I don't know W2R...

Europe, China and the other EM are beginning to look bad because their exports are declining.
It's a big circle and until Europe settles, I can't see the EM countries picking up. It seems the only 2 countries that are doing good are Australia and UK.

I got out of my int'l. in the spring. I'll look at it probably in the middle of next yr., depending on how their economies are doing.

I'm doing what one of the analysts mentioned on CNBC: 30% fixed, 30% muni/corp bonds, 40% U.S. LC dividend paying stocks until the dust settles.
__________________
heirloom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 12:30 AM   #10
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,044
International stocks represent only 2.9% of my portfolio at this time and I am not planning on making big moves until the end of the year.
__________________
FIREd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 02:38 AM   #11
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
I look at my taxable portfolio, anything in red by more than $250 gets sold between now and Dec 31 no exceptions.

Vanguard has 14 international funds, if you own the Vanguard Total International VTIAX, sell it and buy Tax managed international fund VTGMX, or the Total World (which includes US) VTWSX. Or sell it and buy some European, Pacific, and Emerging markets, or Schwab or Fidelity international index funds. The tax savings will far outweigh the minor differences in performance over the next few months.

Now if you have lots of capital losses from previous years, than I can see leaving it alone but really it is only two phones calls one now and another month or two from now.
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 05:27 AM   #12
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
freebird5825's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Nowhere, 43N Latitude, NY
Posts: 9,017
I have only 8% of my portfolio in VEUSX and BHP. No changes planned.
__________________
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them." - Walt Disney
freebird5825 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 07:26 AM   #13
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: westerville
Posts: 242
I know what you mean what to do?? In my case I am tax harvesting an international fund I have a loss on in a Non qualified acct to fund my 2011 Roth contribution with. I do not need the dividend income for cash flow so I plan on selling before that income hits the books as do not want show the income.
__________________
Trawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 08:00 AM   #14
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
Thanks, a lot of good advice here....I'll probably sell it...but, yikes, such a loss really hurts, think I'll stay away from international for a while.
__________________
txtrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 01:49 PM   #15
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,619
Tax-loss harvesting has 2 parts:
1. Sell to realize the loss.
2. Buy replacement shares to keep your asset allocation the same.

Those replacement shares are bought low since you sold low. Indeed, if international funds have done poorly, those are the funds you should be buying and not avoiding. In other words, whatever happened to "Buy Low, Sell High"?
__________________
LOL! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 02:35 PM   #16
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOL! View Post
Tax-loss harvesting has 2 parts:
1. Sell to realize the loss.
2. Buy replacement shares to keep your asset allocation the same.

Those replacement shares are bought low since you sold low. Indeed, if international funds have done poorly, those are the funds you should be buying and not avoiding. In other words, whatever happened to "Buy Low, Sell High"?
Yes, I understand, still, I think I'll sit back and see how international goes for a while.
__________________
txtrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 04:09 PM   #17
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by txtrader View Post
Yes, I understand, still, I think I'll sit back and see how international goes for a while.
Many people sat out during the market downturn in 08 (in my case not rebalancing into equities at the time because it was so scary) and wish we had kept the faith. The end result was sell low and buy high.

That and other lost opportunities over the years have taught me to just stay the course and rebalance when my AA gets out of whack so I agree with LOL!

If the choice becomes sell and stay out or hold, hold is likely to be the better decision in the long run based on my experience.

It is hard to steer into the apparent storm though....
__________________
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 04:54 PM   #18
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post

If the choice becomes sell and stay out or hold, hold is likely to be the better decision in the long run based on my experience.

It is hard to steer into the apparent storm though....
Yes but there are other choices. VTIAX is down 17% YTD I don't get why it is hard to call Vanguard or use the website sell VTIAX and buy one of the numerous other very similar funds?

Take the loss folks, you will feel better in April.
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 06:24 PM   #19
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
Yes but there are other choices. VTIAX is down 17% YTD I don't get why it is hard to call Vanguard or use the website sell VTIAX and buy one of the numerous other very similar funds?

Take the loss folks, you will feel better in April.
I agree, if you can utilize the tax loss reasonably soon.
__________________
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 08:00 PM   #20
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 154
I would sell it, put it in fixed income fund and buy back when everything settles. My VGTSX is -17% YTD too, and am glad I sold when I did.

But I really think it is going to get bad again. They were talking about the EEM fund today and they think it is on its way down because it is below the 50 day moving avg.
__________________

__________________
heirloom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Were/are you more relaxed with the end in sight? Indigo Mule Young Dreamers 41 11-06-2013 12:52 PM
Hello, 26 year old American expat teaching in Abu Dhabi, UAE! thatgirlmjl Hi, I am... 47 05-16-2012 03:45 PM
Leaving Ameriprise - One Year Later Lisa99 Hi, I am... 69 10-17-2011 10:20 AM
The 10 year plan 2021Dream Hi, I am... 10 09-19-2011 10:03 PM
End of Life decisions Alan Health and Early Retirement 13 09-15-2011 09:03 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:32 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.