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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 01:13 PM   #41
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by FIRE'd@51
...Doesn't it seem somewhat unfair that one person's child can inherit a nice house in the suburbs with additonal money to fund the property taxes, etc., while someone else's child has to save up the downpayment for that house after paying high income taxes...
You're forgetting the part where the parent of rich child had to "unfairly" work harder (and/or smarter) than the parent of poor child to save enough money to cause this problem in the first place.

In the end, all the inequities even out.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 01:49 PM   #42
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by FIRE'd@51
If we are "born equal", why should some people be given a large financial head start. Now I know we are not really born equal - inherited genes, intelligence, environment in which we are brought up, etc, etc. However, if you take two fairly equal persons in terms of innate potential at birth, why should one be given a financial head start? Doesn't it seem somewhat unfair that one person's child can inherit a nice house in the suburbs with additonal money to fund the property taxes, etc., while someone else's child has to save up the downpayment for that house after paying high income taxes. Mightn't it be fairer, as has been suggested by some posts above, to have a tax system with much lower income tax rates, even at the expense of higher estate taxes (perhaps 100% with no exemption, except to a spouse and a child who can't take care of himself/herself because of a disability)? Wouldn't this make the playing field more level?
Yes, it would make the playing field more level. It's called socialism.

I prefer to remain in the capitalist US.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 03:05 PM   #43
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by youbet
IMO Don, you're much too kind to the rich. No need for an exemption (other than small, sentimental items). Let each generation stand on their own merit. Let the population as a whole benefit from intergenerational transfer of wealth, not just a few individuals lucky enough to be born into the good life.

Frankly, I'm surprised to hear you take such a conservative position.
I am a liberal, not a Communist.

Here is a modest proposal that fits with the "take the estate" concept but ties in well to the don't involuntarily tax em view. The US Government should offer a competitive inflation protected single payment annuity to retirees. Competitive in the sense that the Government would make a profit off the annuity that would go into the tax coffers. The Feds could even be required (regulations coming here) to set the annuity rate at slightly higher than commercial rates - but fully inflation protected and backed by the full faith of *us.* Thus the tax base would do better than the insurance companies but the private sector could still compete for our business.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 03:42 PM   #44
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by donheff
I am a liberal, not a Communist.
Good one!

But everything is relative Don. I believe you're not a Communist, but liberal is a relative thing. On the issue of estate taxes, you seem quite conservative from where I stand.

Perhaps rather than identify yourself as a "liberal" with a broad brush, you should say you have liberal views on many subjects, but a quite conservative view on others.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 03:43 PM   #45
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Military spending: whackety-whack!

Agreed...
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 03:46 PM   #46
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by kcowan
No way. Buffet is on record saying we should keep the taxes to avoid creating family dynasties and to encourage the creation of charitable foundations. With the Bush tax reductions, he could pass the whole $43 billion to his heirs but has chosen to give them only $7 billion.
Probably not even $7 billion.... He was on record as saying he was only going to leave one million to each of his children... that anybody could live on one million... now, that was awhile ago, so maybe he is up to two... but I bet the rest of his money goes to charity when he dies...
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 04:06 PM   #47
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by bosco
what welfare? That nasty liberal Clinton basically got rid of it.

How about ending the "war on drugs" and whacking all the money given to law enforcement for that insanity? The last thing this society wants is to stop drug abuse--watched TV lately? Seems like half the adds are telling people to beg their doctor for some drug or another. This society loves drugs--just wants to keep the monopoly intact.

Great idea--cut education!! Gee, that'll really help society out. That'll really help the tax base too--get rid of those pesky upper middle class jobs and replace them with Walmart employees.

Believe it or not, ss is not the big problem--it's medicare. SS would be fine if it weren't being continually raided to buy bombs and other essentials.

Good thing they don't let people from Texas with these kind of views be president!!

Still lots of welfare and housing subsidies... and education is a state and local obligation, not a federal... it was not long ago that the Republicans said they were going to eliminate the dept of education...

Yea, stop the war on drugs... make it legal and tax the sh*t out of it... guess what, not to many more people will get on drugs, we save a LOT in expenses and now have a new revenue stream.... win win...

Yes, Medicare is a problem, but so is SS.... to me all money spent by the gvmt is a cost and SS is one of the top three in spending..

You asked and I answered.... just because you do not like my answer is a different matter...
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 04:09 PM   #48
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by FIRE'd@51
Let me throw out another thought for you folks to shoot at! I'm kind of thinking out loud here. I look at life, among other things, as a sort of game. If we are "born equal", why should some people be given a large financial head start. Would you let your opponent in Monopoly start with $10,000 while you had to start with $1500? Now I know we are not really born equal - inherited genes, intelligence, environment in which we are brought up, etc, etc. However, if you take two fairly equal persons in terms of innate potential at birth, why should one be given a financial head start? Doesn't it seem somewhat unfair that one person's child can inherit a nice house in the suburbs with additonal money to fund the property taxes, etc., while someone else's child has to save up the downpayment for that house after paying high income taxes. Mightn't it be fairer, as has been suggested by some posts above, to have a tax system with much lower income tax rates, even at the expense of higher estate taxes (perhaps 100% with no exemption, except to a spouse and a child who can't take care of himself/herself because of a disability)? Wouldn't this make the playing field more level?
NO..
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 04:11 PM   #49
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud

Still lots of welfare and housing subsidies... and education is a state and local obligation, not a federal... it was not long ago that the Republicans said they were going to eliminate the dept of education...

Yea, stop the war on drugs... make it legal and tax the sh*t out of it... guess what, not to many more people will get on drugs, we save a LOT in expenses and now have a new revenue stream.... win win...

Yes, Medicare is a problem, but so is SS.... to me all money spent by the gvmt is a cost and SS is one of the top three in spending..

You asked and I answered.... just because you do not like my answer is a different matter...
And lets whack the crap out of that bloated military budget while we are at it. If you are gonna leave the seniors dying in the streets, the soldiers and defense contractors should feel the pain, too.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 04:15 PM   #50
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
, the soldiers and defense contractors should feel the pain, too.
Gotta disagree with you on that one brewer....... I have no problem with a smaller military aimed at basic self-defense of our country. But I would want the personnel to be higher paid and better equipped. No way would I want to increase their pain.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 04:20 PM   #51
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by youbet
Gotta disagree with you on that one brewer....... I have no problem with a smaller military aimed at basic self-defense of our country. But I would want the personnel to be higher paid and better equipped. No way would I want to increase their pain.
Right, right. Children can go without hot meals. Seniors can go without healthcare and eat cat fod (the cheap stuff). Schools can be left to crumble. But fergawdsakes, don't cut that precious military budget. That's bullshit, pure and simple.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 04:34 PM   #52
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Right, right. Children can go without hot meals. Seniors can go without healthcare and eat cat fod (the cheap stuff). Schools can be left to crumble. But fergawdsakes, don't cut that precious military budget. That's bull****, pure and simple.
Aw bullpoop brewer! The items you mentioned should be funded and I clearly said that. But I disagree with you that our soldiers should be paid less and be less well equipped. A smaller army yes, a lower paid and more poorly equipped army, no.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 04:49 PM   #53
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by kaudrey
Yes, it would make the playing field more level. It's called socialism.

I prefer to remain in the capitalist US.
Socialism is government control of the means of production. Who's advocating that? Look, we have a large deficit combined with enormous unfunded liabilities for entitlement programs. I'm simply suggesting that it might be fairer to reduce the gaps with estate taxes rather than raising income taxes and taxes on capital gains and dividends.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 05:22 PM   #54
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by FIRE'd@51
I'm simply suggesting that it might be fairer to reduce the gaps with estate taxes rather than raising income taxes and taxes on capital gains and dividends.
I vote for a consumption tax. Eliminate the regressive employment tax for the working poor. Those that spend more pay more. Sounds fair to me.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 10:36 PM   #55
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
And lets whack the crap out of that bloated military budget while we are at it. If you are gonna leave the seniors dying in the streets, the soldiers and defense contractors should feel the pain, too.
I agreed with this a few posts back.... not a problem with me...

As an example, there was a thread about the new fighter jet... and how much it will cost... but, there is nobody that has a fighter jet better than what we already have... and then, why are we going with a jet with a pilot anyhow Use the good ole drone... a lot cheaper and it can do more... maybe 15 or 20 g's?? Don't know, but a lot more than a human can do..
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-12-2006, 11:51 PM   #56
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Re: Estate taxes

Aside from the 40%-50% tax rates, one of my gripes w/ the tax is that it PENALIZES responsibility in personal finance.

Sure, once you get past estates of $5 mil, you've likely entered what would be defined as 'starting to get fairly luxurious' rich.

However, whether you're ER or standard-age retired, a $1 mil or $2 mil estate doesn't take long to whither down when you look at health care, nursing home care, and 30 years of living. The responsible person says "I need to adequately plan for 30+ years of retirement, and that will cost quite a bit...and even then, the costs and investment returns aren't guaranteed". The responsible person would guesstimate a reasonable lifespan, and accumulate the assets needed to fund that - which could easily top $1 mil-$2 mil. Then comes along the gov't and says "Oh, you died with some excess....here, let me steal take that off your hands, since you won't be needing that in the ground, and I'll let my politicians decide how to spend that rather than your heirs that you love so much".

If you didn't accumulate an estate because you pissed away all of your money on a high life during your working/retired years, then you go on the gov't dole and let (in part) those responsible tax payers subsidize your irresponsible earlier lifestyle (Yes, I know that sometimes you turn on hard times - but I'm willing to bet a lot of people hadn't sacrificed nearly as much as they could, nor often nearly as much as those who accumulated the estates).

Perhaps why the estate tax generates so much controversy is that it is the ONLY tax which you have no choice in.
Income tax - you decide how hard to work/how much to make, and it is dealt with accordingly
Sales tax - the more you spend, the more you pay
Liquor/other sin taxes - the more vices you enjoy, the more you pay
Death tax - umm......don't really have much of a choice here.

Florida recently did away with their asset tax....but perhaps the federal gov't should institute a similar tax on assets in exchange for slimming down the death tax rates? That way, the uber rich can't simply get around the death tax since it would be levied on ALL non-retirement financial assets, including municipal bonds, irrevocable trust accounts, etc., which the uber rich use more frequently than us commoners, and end up paying drastically lower average tax rates. That way, the gov't doesn't have to wait until you die to get its share-they can take-and-spend from you while you're alive as well.

Of course, that would probably get a lot more complaints versus complaints from people hit by the death tax (i.e. zero )

Probably my other biggest complaint on the death tax is overall gov't waste. I mean, come on - an almost $2 TRILLION budget, and they can't get it balanced!??!?! We need to throw out the whole budget and start from scratch - make each agency justify its budget, rather than simply piling on more spending, and let me see just where my $2 Trillion goes, and I might not be so pissed at handing it over.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-13-2006, 06:26 AM   #57
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
And lets whack the crap out of that bloated military budget while we are at it. If you are gonna leave the seniors dying in the streets, the soldiers and defense contractors should feel the pain, too.
Brewer, while we're at it, lets convert the dome on the capital to a mosque. I'm sure if we just cut our military enough, the bad guys will just leave us alone
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-13-2006, 06:30 AM   #58
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by FIRE'd@51
Let me throw out another thought for you folks to shoot at! I'm kind of thinking out loud here. I look at life, among other things, as a sort of game. If we are "born equal", why should some people be given a large financial head start. Would you let your opponent in Monopoly start with $10,000 while you had to start with $1500? Now I know we are not really born equal - inherited genes, intelligence, environment in which we are brought up, etc, etc. However, if you take two fairly equal persons in terms of innate potential at birth, why should one be given a financial head start? Doesn't it seem somewhat unfair that one person's child can inherit a nice house in the suburbs with additonal money to fund the property taxes, etc., while someone else's child has to save up the downpayment for that house after paying high income taxes. Mightn't it be fairer, as has been suggested by some posts above, to have a tax system with much lower income tax rates, even at the expense of higher estate taxes (perhaps 100% with no exemption, except to a spouse and a child who can't take care of himself/herself because of a disability)? Wouldn't this make the playing field more level?
That may be the most disgusting thing I have ever read on the internet, and that says a lot!

Question for you, do you actually think that people will accumulate capital at their current rates if they know that the govt will take it all at death? I do work for some very wealthy people. These people could have stopped working long ago, but instead they keep building businesses and creating wealth in most cases because they want to create a legacy for their families. Are these the people (wealth and job creators) that you want to dis-incentivize?
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-13-2006, 06:43 AM   #59
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by saluki9
Brewer, while we're at it, lets convert the dome on the capital to a mosque. I'm sure if we just cut our military enough, the bad guys will just leave us alone
Oh yeah, since our current military strategy has been SO effective, what with the Taliban running part of Afghanistan, Iraq a ****ing disaster with no end in sight, and a drooling idiot-in-chief that can't figure out that throwing more men and money into the abyss won't fix the problems we have created. USA! USA! USA! Luv it or leave it! <insert jingoistic slogan here>

Give me a break. Do you give more capital to managers who screw up? Not me.
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Re: Estate taxes
Old 12-13-2006, 06:44 AM   #60
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Re: Estate taxes

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Originally Posted by MooreBonds
Liquor/other sin taxes - the more vices you enjoy, the more you pay
That one is very easy to avoid even if you imbibe. Make it yourself. No taxing authorities involved in any way.
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