Ethics/boundaries-related question about college funding

[youbet]

My best friend (an Ivy Leaguer) put his two kids thru Dallas and Atlanta's finest primary and secondary schools. The daughter went to Washington and Lee and the son went to a military college.

While his friends are retiring in their late 50's and early 60s, he's having to work until he's almost 70. He sure wishes he had some of that $2 million gross income he spent on the kids' educations. The daughter is a M.D. in residency and the son is an Army Ranger somewhere nobody will talk about.

My father always told me state universities were good enough for my sister and me. There were no student loans in our family--a cancer on the pocket of the middle class.

The mistake wasn't sending the kids to expensive schools. The mistake was forgetting to offset the additional expenditure with additional income at the time. Turn up the spending dial. Turn up the income dial to correspond and keep plans intact.

 

[marinauser]

I can't agree that where you go to school only matters for investment banking. Many companies only recruit on certain campuses because of the stature of those schools - whether real or imagined - especially for science and engineering majors. Take a look at payscale.com at the college return on investment survey. I would agree that if you want to be an english major, where you go to school may not be as important. But if you want to get into a really good graduate program, going to podunk state will not help any and could hurt you. Say a graduate program has 15 spots and get a number of qualified applications from high ranking schools and an equally qualified applicant from a small no-name state school. The no-name graduate loses out - the graduate program will assess that the great schools presented far more competition for the undergraduates and their accomplishments are entitled to more weight that a supposedly equal accomplishment at the no-name school.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I'm not sure about graduate programs but for our family we did take a look at the starting salaries on payscale.com and we couldn't see a benefit from paying more than an in-state, public school in California. Which may not meet the definition of podunk as that includes some name brand schools like Berkeley and UCLA as well as many less famous but still good value schools. I am not sure what people here consider a good job as that varies widely but companies like Apple hire many candidates from San Jose State and other CA public colleges and universities.

 

[Fedup]

I can't agree that where you go to school only matters for investment banking. Many companies only recruit on certain campuses because of the stature of those schools - whether real or imagined - especially for science and engineering majors. Take a look at payscale.com at the college return on investment survey. I would agree that if you want to be an english major, where you go to school may not be as important. But if you want to get into a really good graduate program, going to podunk state will not help any and could hurt you. Say a graduate program has 15 spots and get a number of qualified applications from high ranking schools and an equally qualified applicant from a small no-name state school. The no-name graduate loses out - the graduate program will assess that the great schools presented far more competition for the undergraduates and their accomplishments are entitled to more weight that a supposedly equal accomplishment at the no-name school.

I was thinking of the UCs as good enough(from my California point of view), even Cal Polies, you don't get denied from top graduate schools if you have high GPAs. Especially not for engineering. Also payscale is very location specific, when I last looked it was more schools from California or close proximity to Silicon Valley, like SJSU and Cal Poly SLO are on the top 20 lists.
I don't know what you mean by top science programs. All the UCs have excellent science and engineering programs. If a kid can get into an Ivy, that same kid can get into the top few UCs.

I've been checking my kid's school, if she gets 3.9 and above GPA, she will have no problem getting into PhD at Stanford and MIT for Computer Science, this is if she has desire to do that.


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[Aerides]

At first I was reading your post thinking "Dad is 80, let him do this..." but then I read your thoughts about the issues and see there's some history/baggage there, so it's a tough one. Say yes and you have the potential issues, say no and you might cause a riff that you'll regret in later years.

Have your kids been accepted at these high end schools even? If not it might be less of an issue...

 

[Moemg]

I paid for both my children to attend private out of state schools and would have loved some help from a grandparent but my parents did not have money to spare . They had educated four children. I am now a grandmother and every birthday and Christmas I give my grandsons money towards college along with a few toys . I don't do it for anything other than I love them and want the best for them. Maybe this is how your Dad feels ?

 

[SecondCor521]

1. The right to brag about his grandkids to such an excessive degree that he is living vicariously through them and taking away from their accomplishment and making it his.
If you have a serious concern about this, I assume there is some history with him doing similar things in the past. Perhaps you should discuss your concerns with him if so.

--> Yes, there is history of him doing similarly in the past with me, my sister, and my nephew, and he tried to do it with my oldest son. I don't know if a discussion would work, since one of my Dad's mottos is "It ain't bragging if it's true" and I don't think he is willing to try to understand how what he does affected me.

2. The right to have undue influence or say on which colleges get applied to, which colleges are attended, what major is chosen, etc., especially the pressure to attend a more prestigious school or select a more prestigious major even if it is not the best fit for the kid.
Very reasonable concern. Again, I think an honest discussion with him (and perhaps with the kids also) would make sense.

--> Thanks. I think my kids could withstand the pressure, but I think it could make them feel pretty uncomfortable.

3. The right to hang an asterisk on my FIRE accomplishment and imply that I couldn't have done it without him.
I'm not sure I understand this one. If it is based on things he has said to you in the future, it sounds like you may have other issues with your relationship and I would be careful not to have that cloud making a good decision for your children.

--> I came to a similar conclusion after posting. Any issue(s) between my father and I should not be cause to prevent or limit opportunities for my kids (except to the degree that it mightn't an opportunity at all; viz. concern #1 above).

Good luck in working through this.

--> Thank you.

--> See embedded replies.

 

[ABQ2015]

If your children are academically inclined and can make the grades to get into a more prestigious university and want to attend that university, I would take your father's offer. It is a good use of your future inheritance. It does not have to be some hotsy totsy private liberal arts college. Public state universities can be very good but are not all the same, e.g., California will have better public universities than Idaho. Several of my engineer co-workers have sent their children to out of state schools (e.g., Michigan State, U. of Colorado, Colorado School of Mines, Colorado State, Arizona State) which are better academically than my state's universities. First their kids had to have great grades to be accepted and then it cost significantly more although many of them had partial scholarships to offset the costs.

 

[savory]

You received lots of help here. I am a public college person. And, I am adamantly against a child selecting an out of state public college that simply costs more. For example, I know WI residents who selected University of Michigan vs. the University of Wisconsin. The cost was doubled. The education and reputation, the same. It was just cool not going to college with people from your HS, at least for an 18 year old not responsible for cost.

The one thing I have not seen on this thread are scholarship opportunities. My daughter worked hard to find as many as she could. (My son was not as ambitious). She did the same when she received her advanced nursing school degree, which she paid for herself. Actually, her 'scholarship' allowed her to make money while going to nursing school. Not everyone will get a scholarship but I think many people do not look deeply enough for scholarship opportunities.

 

[athena53]

Background: parents paid about 90% of education for all 5 of us at good state schools. We all chose decent majors and had good, solid careers although 2 of us are now retired. We appreciated our education even though we didn't have to go into hock for it or earn 100% of the cost. Same for DS, my only child. He had summer jobs but we paid half the rest. A wealthy Aunt (my Ex's sister) contributed the remainder. I would have paid 100% happily, but was OK with accepting their contribution. (I'd funded the military boarding school for HS that helped DS get his act together all by myself.) DS is a claims adjuster and has been promoted several times.


I'm putting money into a 529 for our 2-year old granddaughter and they're expecting another little one in November (woo-hoo!). DDIL is a SAHM and she's wonderful at it, so I want to provide what help I can.


Long way of saying: I come at this from multiple perspectives and all of them say that you're fortunate to have your father's offer of help. It won't necessarily make your kids parasites who major in drinking and partying, nor will it take away from what you've done to get them this far. If Dad refuses to pay for a major in Dance Education at an expensive school, that's his prerogative. Launching a kid without student loans is a gift in this day and age. Hey, maybe you can pay it forward with grandkids someday!

 

[Fedup]

My husband and I were self funded. It's hard for us to imagine getting so much help from our parents. Even though we provided for our kids, we didn't want them to take things like college tuition as a birth right either.


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[aida2003]

Let your father help!! There's nothing wrong with that. It's very kind that he wants to help your kids go to whatever school they may be dreaming about.

I think you are SO very lucky to have a father who cares that much and is willing to step up to the plate like that. My own father was a surgeon and would not pay a dime of my college expenses or even room and board. I think that reluctance to pay anything for college even if the money is there, is probably more common than we know. I will always wonder what life would have been like if I had college paid for. Your father's offer sounds like a dream come true to me.

Besides, if he is 80 years old, there is probably no way he would be able to spend that money in any other way that would make him as happy. So let him pay, as a favor to him.

To OP: I totally agree with W2R. If the grandpa has funds and offers to pay, I'd definitely accept that unless you see that your own kids will totally not appreciate it.

To W2R: your story sounds kind of sad. Have you ever talked to your dad and discussed your feelings? OTOH, don't you think that caused to work much harder for your own success? If he saw you totally struggled, he might have stepped in to help you...you never know

 

[W2R]

To W2R: your story sounds kind of sad. Have you ever talked to your dad and discussed your feelings? OTOH, don't you think that caused to work much harder for your own success? If he saw you totally struggled, he might have stepped in to help you...you never know

He's been dead since 1981, and your speculation is a great daydream but unfortunately unfounded. Nobody cried at his funeral. I had a wonderful mother, though, so overall I was pretty lucky in the "parent lottery".

 

[daylatedollarshort]

One other thought....Our kids' GPs have given them some pre-inheritance kinds of money gifts now, and I would just say from personal experience there are more frivolous things kids that age can find to spend money on than a college education. If they are going to inherit or be gifted the money eventually anyway, college may not be a bad use of the funds.

 

[marko]

Your Dad got a good education for a medical career so he may be somewhat biased.

Personally I think there's a difference between a kid who's gifted and wants to go to MIT or Harvard and one who wants to study Japanese art--not that there's anything wrong with that--but IMO there should be a cost/benefit to the discussion.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, but so is money.

 

[Rustic23]

I did not read all the responses, so this may me a repeat.

We are currently paying towards our GD's college, and have money set aside for GS.

Here is the way DW and I look at it. "We are spending their inheritance?"

We are not taking away from anything we want to do, or purchase. Often when parents go out with adult children, there is a fight for the check. We tell the kids, "Its your money". In the early years they wanted to prove they could afford it. Now, I think they understand.

Your father has the resources, and it most likely makes him feel good to do this. You know you can afford it, and I'll bet he does too. You can let him do it and make him happy, or refuse it and you will get the money when he is dead.

 

[SecondCor521]

You can let him do it and make him happy, or refuse it and you will get the money when he is dead.

...at which point I will probably try to honor his memory by spending more on my kids' college, because that's the number one thing he would have wanted done with the money (after keeping it away from the government, one of his prime directives). Hmm.

 

[marko]

One other thought....Our kids' GPs have given them some pre-inheritance kinds of money gifts now, and I would just say from personal experience there are more frivolous things kids that age can find to spend money on than a college education. If they are going to inherit or be gifted the money eventually anyway, college may not be a bad use of the funds.

The OP might consider himself fortunate.

While we didn't need his money for college, my (very) wealthy grandfather wouldn't have contributed a single dime even if we were destitute. It would have never even entered his mind.

"You'll get it when I die; until then, it's mine" was his mantra.

It was too late for tuitions but his heirs are forever grateful and most RE'd soon after his passing.

 

[brett]

Let your children make the decision.

It is their future. They should make the call.

 

[SecondCor521]

At first I was reading your post thinking "Dad is 80, let him do this..." but then I read your thoughts about the issues and see there's some history/baggage there, so it's a tough one. Say yes and you have the potential issues, say no and you might cause a riff that you'll regret in later years.

Have your kids been accepted at these high end schools even? If not it might be less of an issue...

Sorry, Aerides, I missed this question before.

My kids are all very bright and do well on the standardized test. My oldest got a 2200 on the SAT and was a National Merit Scholar. Having said that, my two sons were not / have not been conscientious about grades and other activities, so they were not / are not heading toward high end schools.

My daughter is the straight-A conscientious kid who is internally motivated. She also has outside activities so could go to a good top-notch school if she wanted.

That all having been said, a decent out of state private university can easily run $50-$60K per year, which would outstrip their college budget even with decent scholarships.

 

[SecondCor521]

FWIW, my Dad is highly in favor of "useful" majors. I had considered psychology and philosophy before ending up with a CS degree.

 

[Nords]

The other day, my father very intently emphasized to me again that he thinks that the price of college should be no object, and that the best course of action is for my kids to choose the best college for them, and that between my father and I we should just cover the cost.

On the one hand, I appreciate my father's generosity. On the other hand, as noted above, I'm not sure I agree with him. On the other other hand, it seems bad somehow to keep this conversation to myself and not inform my kids.

What I am thinking of doing is having a conversation with my kids informing them that I'll still pay what I was planning to pay, and then if they want to go to a more expensive school, they need to work that out with my Dad. If he wants to pay, and they want to accept, what's wrong with that?

On the other other other other hand, I feel like I should be the one paying for all of their college. Having my Dad help out, even though he wants to, makes me into some sort of cop-out, since I was able to retire at 46 partially because I decided not to budget for 12 years of Ivy League.

What would you do?

"You know that I don't need Grandpa's money, and he'd like to do something nice for you guys. Instead of leaving me an inheritance when he dies, he'd rather enjoy the money while he's alive. He's told me that he's willing to help you guys pay for college. You know what I'll give you, and Grandpa is willing to help cover the rest of the cost."