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Old 11-02-2012, 01:45 PM   #21
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Actually, it makes life much harder for honest expats trying to make it with a small business. It seems to me to penalize the wrong people.

The owner of allchilenet runs a business with his wife in Chile. As an American, he is subject to onerous reporting and problems with his local bank because of FATCA.

Chile Forum: Chile Forum

How about making the US a friendlier place to do business? Then, fewer people would seek their fortune elsewhere.
As a former expat myself, I couldn't agree more!

But with more and more people in the US viewing "people doing business" as baaad people in a net-zero game, it's an uphill climb.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:01 PM   #22
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This site constantly confuses me!

On one hand there's accusations of 'cheating' on FATCA and those who 'manipulate asssets' to get Medicare-paid nursing home care, yet there are entire threads discussing manipulating income to get Obamacare subsidies with nary a peep.

Jus' sayin'...
I don't see a conflict. "Limboing lower" with taxable income to get a subsidy is perfectly legal, just like all other tax optimization strategies. Cheating on taxes by housing unreported money overseas and fraudulently avoiding the asset test for Medicare is breaking the law. Understand the difference?

FWIW, I think the whole idea of forcing Merkins to continue paying taxes when they do not reside in the US is crazy.
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:32 PM   #23
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It seems a bit silly, to me, that the USA thinks its laws apply outside its borders. But apparently it (the USA) does. I have no problem with the USA wanting to apply its laws to its own citizens. I do have a problem the IRS expecting foreign banks to report holdings of American citizens in other countries without compensation. They can find other ways to prosecute their tax 'cheaters'.

I have a good deal of money in Canadian banks. Why should they spend money (that they could pay me in dividends) to act as an agent of the IRS? Is the IRS offering to pay for the information?
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:30 PM   #24
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I don't see a conflict. "Limboing lower" with taxable income to get a subsidy is perfectly legal, just like all other tax optimization strategies. Cheating on taxes by housing unreported money overseas and fraudulently avoiding the asset test for Medicare is breaking the law. Understand the difference?

FWIW, I think the whole idea of forcing Merkins to continue paying taxes when they do not reside in the US is crazy.
With all due respect, actually I don't see the difference. What I do see is the limboing contortions in your argument.

It's always dangerous to infer bad motives because someone makes different choices. Although I have certainly been guilty of that, I try very hard to start with the assumption that others have good motives, until proven otherwise. It just seems to make people nicer.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:04 PM   #25
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A delay in FATCA doesn't really help the individual, you still have to comply with the complications and restrictions of the IRS code and the various tax treaties and file an FBAR and or an 8938. It also hasn't stopped some foreign financial institutions from closing accounts held by US citizens. The latest example is the UK Post Office that will not sell Individual Saving Accounts (ISAs) to US citizens even if they live in the UK. The situation is a mess for the 99% of law abiding regular US citizens who's circumstances mean that they have to deal with foreign taxes and finances. Taxing on citizenship is bizarre, but one again US exceptionalism seems to be enough of a reason to continue with it despite all the problems it causes. It's so bad that the once taboo subject of renouncing US citizenship is often talked about on US expat forums, not for the purposes of tax avoidance, but so that the expat has a chance at paying the correct taxes without the fear of astronomical fines from the IRS and so they can buy sensible foreign financial products without IRS restrictions.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:16 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
This site constantly confuses me!

On one hand there's accusations of 'cheating' on FATCA and those who 'manipulate asssets' to get Medicare-paid nursing home care, yet there are entire threads discussing manipulating income to get Obamacare subsidies with nary a peep.

Jus' sayin'...
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
I don't see a conflict. "Limboing lower" with taxable income to get a subsidy is perfectly legal, just like all other tax optimization strategies. Cheating on taxes by housing unreported money overseas and fraudulently avoiding the asset test for Medicare is breaking the law. Understand the difference?

FWIW, I think the whole idea of forcing Merkins to continue paying taxes when they do not reside in the US is crazy.
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With all due respect, actually I don't see the difference. What I do see is the limboing contortions in your argument.

It's always dangerous to infer bad motives because someone makes different choices. Although I have certainly been guilty of that, I try very hard to start with the assumption that others have good motives, until proven otherwise. It just seems to make people nicer.
There is a clear difference - and it is very simple.

It is unlawful to evade US income taxes by sheltering money offshore. If you shelter money offshore and earn income you are required by law to report it and pay tax on that income irrespective of the likelihood of getting caught.

It is unlawful to transfer assets within the lookback period and not report the transfer in order to fraudulently induce Medicare to pay for your nursing home care.

It is not unlawful to structure your income to optimize the Obamacare health insurance subsidies.

It is just like taxes - it is well established that you have the legal right to structure your financial affairs in a way that minimizes taxes (as long as you operate within the law).
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:02 PM   #27
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With all due respect, actually I don't see the difference. What I do see is the limboing contortions in your argument.

It's always dangerous to infer bad motives because someone makes different choices. Although I have certainly been guilty of that, I try very hard to start with the assumption that others have good motives, until proven otherwise. It just seems to make people nicer.
You don't understand the difference between compling with the law and breaking it? You must be very popular with the local constabulary.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:10 AM   #28
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But with more and more people in the US viewing "people doing business" as baaad people in a net-zero game, it's an uphill climb.
The US is becoming more and more like a banana republic, IMHO. However, I do think our people have better sense than our government, so there is hope that we will not turn into Argentina or Venezuela or Brazil...or England/Germany/Spain/Holland.... (Maybe it isn't all that bad after all??)
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:05 AM   #29
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The US is becoming more and more like a banana republic, IMHO. However, I do think our people have better sense than our government, so there is hope that we will not turn into Argentina or Venezuela or Brazil...or England/Germany/Spain/Holland.... (Maybe it isn't all that bad after all??)
Just as long as we don't turn into ... dare I say it ... Canada. 'Cause then we all would have to eat those nasty fries with gravy and cheese curd.
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:00 AM   #30
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It is unlawful to transfer assets within the lookback period and not report the transfer in order to fraudulently induce Medicare to pay for your nursing home care.
But is it NOT unlawful to transfer assets ahead of the lookback period. That is what I have been talking about; trusts, gifting etc are all part of "Elder Law Strategies".

If the only difference is timing, I don't see the real difference in the end result...Medicare pays. Yet the latter is advertised non-stop on TV, radio and billboards by reputable agencies, banks and financial advisors. (at least in my state)
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:05 AM   #31
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Just as long as we don't turn into ... dare I say it ... Canada. 'Cause then we all would have to eat those nasty fries with gravy and cheese curd.
and queue up for health care....
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:29 PM   #32
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and queue up for health care....
.....or die because of lack of it......

bring on Porky

But the original observation that FATCA is being held up actually has no impact on US citizens if 8938 etc are still required and of course the IRS code is still hampered by taxation depending on citizenship.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:49 PM   #33
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[QUOTE=marko;1245419]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post

It is unlawful to transfer assets within the lookback period and not report the transfer in order to fraudulently induce Medicare to pay for your nursing home care.
QUOTE]

But is it NOT unlawful to transfer assets ahead of the lookback period. That is what I have been talking about; trusts, gifting etc are all part of "Elder Law Strategies".

If the only difference is timing, I don't see the real difference in the end result...Medicare pays. Yet the latter is advertised non-stop on TV, radio and billboards by reputable agencies, banks and financial advisors. (at least in my state)
Reminds me of that old quote (Churchill I think)... He's speaking to an attractive but snooty woman at a party and asks if they could have a relationship if he had a million Pounds; she indicates it's a possibility she'd have a relationship with a man of such means. He then asked if she'd sleep with him for five quid. She abruptly says, "Absolutely not! What kind of woman do you think I am?!" He says, "Well, Madam we've already established that. Now we're just haggling over price."
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:08 PM   #34
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Thanks folks, we think this thread has just about run its course.

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