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Old 10-14-2013, 01:56 PM   #81
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My parents had a bypass trust. After my mom passed, my brother told off my dad and cut all ties. (Said some absolutely horrible things.) My dad, understandably, was miffed. My sister and I tried to maintain ties with my brother - at least to know superficially that he was alive, ok. He rebuffed these efforts at contact. My sister gave up. I persisted, with twice a year tracking down his latest email address (he'd change it after each contact) and reaching out.
My dad redid his half of the trust - cutting my brother out. I had no idea at the time.
Then one horrible weekend my brother reaches out to my sister to let her know he's in the hospital with terminal cancer. The same weekend my dad learned he had stage 3 multiple myeloma.
My dad and brother had one visit after that - and my dad assured my brother that medical bills would be covered.
2 months later my dad died. My brother (and I) learned that he'd been cut from the trust. He was resigned to it since he knew he'd been the one actively cutting ties to the family.
2 months after that my brother died. As promised, my sister and I used estate money to cover any medical bills not covered under insurance. With the inheritance from my mom's side of the trust - he was able to have a *small* estate (would have been negative networth otherwise) to leave to his church.

I understand problematic family relationships. I don't blame my dad. And even my brother knew he'd reaped what he'd sown.

Wills can be contested. Not all families follow the rules of probate. We're dealing with this on my husbands side. Grandparent's will wasn't probated - who inherits a shared vacation property keeps changing... Lies are being told. Siblings are stabbing each other in the back. And it seems to be a survival thing. Only 2 of 5 sibling survive at this point. DH is executor for my FIL - and can't get a straight answer about this asset. So FIL's probate is being held up. Families can get SO weird about money.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:45 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by rodi View Post
My parents had a bypass trust. After my mom passed, my brother told off my dad and cut all ties. (Said some absolutely horrible things.) My dad, understandably, was miffed. My sister and I tried to maintain ties with my brother - at least to know superficially that he was alive, ok. He rebuffed these efforts at contact. My sister gave up. I persisted, with twice a year tracking down his latest email address (he'd change it after each contact) and reaching out. My dad redid his half of the trust - cutting my brother out. I had no idea at the time. Then one horrible weekend my brother reaches out to my sister to let her know he's in the hospital with terminal cancer. The same weekend my dad learned he had stage 3 multiple myeloma. My dad and brother had one visit after that - and my dad assured my brother that medical bills would be covered. 2 months later my dad died. My brother (and I) learned that he'd been cut from the trust. He was resigned to it since he knew he'd been the one actively cutting ties to the family. 2 months after that my brother died. As promised, my sister and I used estate money to cover any medical bills not covered under insurance. With the inheritance from my mom's side of the trust - he was able to have a *small* estate (would have been negative networth otherwise) to leave to his church. I understand problematic family relationships. I don't blame my dad. And even my brother knew he'd reaped what he'd sown. Wills can be contested. Not all families follow the rules of probate. We're dealing with this on my husbands side. Grandparent's will wasn't probated - who inherits a shared vacation property keeps changing... Lies are being told. Siblings are stabbing each other in the back. And it seems to be a survival thing. Only 2 of 5 sibling survive at this point. DH is executor for my FIL - and can't get a straight answer about this asset. So FIL's probate is being held up. Families can get SO weird about money.
Wow. Just....wow. My own father passed from Multiple Myeloma. Your brother told your dad off as he was mourning the loss of his life partner. It's unreal how cruel those you love can be. How good of you and your sister to see that brother was taken care of in the end. He did finally reach out to make amends it seems.
My BIL is executor for his widowed mother who passed five years ago. The estate still isn't settled. Out of five surviving children, ONE continually challenges anything the other four agree on. Without getting too detailed, this brother seems to think everything should be his. His wife is a real case and listens at the closed door during every meeting the siblings have. Too funny! At this point the lawyer is making out like a bandit.
I need to google a bypass trust. Haven't heard that term before. I think I'm just going to spend it all and die broke. Seems like the simplest thing. However living under an overpass in a cardboard box isn't all that appealing. ;-)
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:17 PM   #83
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my understanding of a bypass trust is that the surviving spouse can't change the terms of what was in the trust when the first spouse died... for half the estate at the time of death. So that half is irrevokable. But can use the assets for what they want in the meantime. I'm probably getting this all wrong.
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:26 PM   #84
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Have you considered setting up an education account (Cloverdale ESA) for each of your grandchildren? You are the owner of the account, I think you can make the trustworthy son the owner should you pass before it is used (preventing the one son from converting it).
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Perhaps one way is a way my grandparents used - if you are going to purchase savings bonds for yourself anyway, put grandchildren's names on them as either co-owners or beneficiaries.
I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but nowadays don't both of these strategies require knowledge of the grandchildren's social security numbers?

Asking for them could be a fatal flaw in this case, either because obtaining them would be impossible due to lack of communication or because asking for them would be tipping your hand on the legacy distribution.
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Old 10-14-2013, 09:40 PM   #85
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my understanding of a bypass trust is that the surviving spouse can't change the terms of what was in the trust when the first spouse died... for half the estate at the time of death. So that half is irrevokable. But can use the assets for what they want in the meantime. I'm probably getting this all wrong.
Might you be talking about a marital trust or what is also called a Grantors trust? Assets of the 1st to pass away goes into a marital trust for the benefit of the surviving spouse? Typically the remainder beneficiaries receive the assets of the trust when the 2nd parent passes. Surviving spouse is the beneficiary while still living and is distributed any income generated. Trustee can also distribute principle assets if a need to do so is requested and the need proven.
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Old 10-14-2013, 09:41 PM   #86
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I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but nowadays don't both of these strategies require knowledge of the grandchildren's social security numbers?

Asking for them could be a fatal flaw in this case, either because obtaining them would be impossible due to lack of communication or because asking for them would be tipping your hand on the legacy distribution.
I think most things require a SSN these days. Even the TDO or POD designations require it.

The only place I can think of where SSN may not be required is in the will or a trust document as I don't recall ever using one for those documents.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:04 PM   #87
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I think most things require a SSN these days. Even the TDO or POD designations require it.

The only place I can think of where SSN may not be required is in the will or a trust document as I don't recall ever using one for those documents.
I just redid my Transfer on Death (assuming you meant TOD, not TDO) at Vanguard, and it did not require the SSN of my beneficiaries.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:07 PM   #88
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I recently was contacted by a lawyer abroad to tell me that I am a minor beneficiary on a small estate of a distant relative. They did ask for my ID number, and also for any tax documents relating to a previous bequest.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:11 PM   #89
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Any living trust becomes irrevocable at the death of the last grantor trustee.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:37 PM   #90
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I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but nowadays don't both of these strategies require knowledge of the grandchildren's social security numbers?
I haven't purchased savings bonds since back in the "good ol' days of paper applications, and when they actually did something as crazy sounding as paying you interest! the interest rates weren't 0% " (2001), but do they now require SSN for a co-owner or beneficiary? My suggestion was buying savings bonds with the OP as the owner, and the grandchildren as either co-owners or beneficiaries. Unless TreasuryDirect changed it when they went all digital, you used to only need the SSN of the primary owner.
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Old 10-15-2013, 02:07 AM   #91
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Any thought for spending a little money to hire (not just a counselor) but a true, experienced family interventionist who might be able to help everyone get things back on track? It usually includes a day of training on the front end. Not sure how it might work in your case. Then you could say you tried everything.

Sometimes we say we've tried everything, but it's only the everything that we ourselves know to do.

Interventionists don't just work with addiction interventions. Some of them specialize in turning around dysfunctional family dynamics.

Just a thought.

Kindest regards.

PM me for a referral.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:06 AM   #92
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I just redid my Transfer on Death (assuming you meant TOD, not TDO) at Vanguard, and it did not require the SSN of my beneficiaries.
Yes, I meant TOD. I just redid mine too. Granted this account has always been at a brokerage. They have required a SSN every time (last 10 years or so if I have moved the account or changed the designation). If I don't fill in the info they tell me it won't be accepted.
I guess it depends on where your account is. Didn't know that. Thanks!
Personally, I would use SSN where ever possible. Not that there would be any identity theft but one never knows how things will be years or decades from now.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:53 AM   #93
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+1

Dysfunctional families are everywhere, and people are downright weird even without money. That dysfunction continues is not a testament to the effectiveness of family therapy.
I have always been amazed that people will do nasty things to a family member that they would never do to a stranger.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:30 AM   #94
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I have always been amazed that people will do nasty things to a family member that they would never do to a stranger.
Have to agree with this Chuckanut. To the point I adopted the thought "the measurement of one's character is not how you treat the public, it is how you treat your family". May not hold up in all cases but still.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:55 AM   #95
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Not trying to hijack the thread, I just have to get this off my chest...

I think it's criminal that people cannot stipulate in their wills or trusts what they want to happen to THEIR money when they die, and not have it contested.

I should have an inviolate right to stipulate what happens to my money and my property upon my death, and those instructions should be followed to the latter, no matter what other people think, including family members.

If I knew there was going to be an outcry, and lawsuits, etc, after my death, I'd just liquidate everything into cash, and start dropping it anonymously into the donation boxes at local churches. That way, NOBODY got anything.

A person should have the right to choose what happens to their estate after they die, without question. It's sickening to me that those rights aren't respected, and can be overturned.
As a rebuttal, I would like to point out how people (especially the elderly) can be manipulated and bullied into turning their assets over to people that in earlier years they would never consider. I had a grandmother stripped of assets by POS "private caregivers" that my grandmother hired to keep her out of the proverbial "nursing home." She needed assisted care but they managed to drain her accounts with unverifiable fees and "gifts" from my grandmother. It wasn't a fortune but it was all she had. The police were totally disinterested in going after them even though there was obvious evidence of fraud.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:09 PM   #96
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Any thought for spending a little money to hire (not just a counselor) but a true, experienced family interventionist who might be able to help everyone get things back on track? It usually includes a day of training on the front end. Not sure how it might work in your case. Then you could say you tried everything.

Sometimes we say we've tried everything, but it's only the everything that we ourselves know to do.

Interventionists don't just work with addiction interventions. Some of them specialize in turning around dysfunctional family dynamics.
Wish our family had investigated that option. Not sure what would have been available in 1978. Our family did all they knew for DB. Maybe an expert could have seen what is so painfully obvious today. DB I miss you.

MRG
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:10 PM   #97
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Wills can be contested. Not all families follow the rules of probate. We're dealing with this on my husbands side. Grandparent's will wasn't probated - who inherits a shared vacation property keeps changing... Lies are being told. Siblings are stabbing each other in the back. And it seems to be a survival thing. Only 2 of 5 sibling survive at this point. DH is executor for my FIL - and can't get a straight answer about this asset. So FIL's probate is being held up. Families can get SO weird about money.
Absolutely. My DWs uncle was worth many millions due to the value of a business he built. It was all left to his children and wife with a few bequests. He left my FIL $75,000 because "he never asked me for anything." Most of the family sent their children to him for jobs but not my FIL.

His wife and children went nuts over it. That was the largest individual bequest but it was well under 1% of the estate.

The business was set up in trust for his wife and children with the stipulation that they could not participate in the daily operations. There were also limits with how much they could take from the business with the remainder to go to the grandkids upon all their parents' deaths. They were still all getting a million or so per year in "pocket money." That wasn't good enough for them so they sued and successfully broke the will. The children took about a three years to completely run the company into the ground. Fortunately, they had separate "spendthrift trusts" that let them still have a lifestyle they don't deserve.
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:10 PM   #98
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As a rebuttal, I would like to point out how people (especially the elderly) can be manipulated and bullied into turning their assets over to people that in earlier years they would never consider. I had a grandmother stripped of assets by POS "private caregivers" that my grandmother hired to keep her out of the proverbial "nursing home." She needed assisted care but they managed to drain her accounts with unverifiable fees and "gifts" from my grandmother. It wasn't a fortune but it was all she had. The police were totally disinterested in going after them even though there was obvious evidence of fraud.


To me, that is one of the bad things in life.... that 'small' crime is not pursued.... I have seen this a few times and the police usually just say 'it is a civil matter'.... sorry, but fraud is fraud...

I know that the crooks who created a fake bank account with my info and bought a few thousand dollars worth of stuff were not pursed at all... but the company who guaranteed them kept trying to come after me.... even with proof from the bank that the account number was not legit...
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:48 PM   #99
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I would feel the same as you.
Me too. +1
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Old 10-15-2013, 03:55 PM   #100
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One idea is that you could start distributing small amounts to the "good kid" now and then in the will just divide it all up evenly.

If you do this then you might be able to achieve what you want without creating any additional drama in the future. The one that is not involved in your life will be none the wiser since he has been out of touch anyway.
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