Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-24-2012, 11:24 AM   #21
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
I don't think I could ever invest with DFA since all those letters mean to me these days is Dodd Frank Act.
__________________

__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-24-2012, 11:27 AM   #22
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Gotadimple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,763
In reality there are many people who are not able or willing to self-manage their money. In that case, a financial planner is probably their best option. In that situation, what they need to be looking for is a financial firm that will manage their money for the lowest cost to the portfolio.

There are many out there who charge far less than the OP's case. In the OP's case there are other circumstances that need to be considered. That's when a good financial planner and tax accountant can be very useful.

-- Rita
__________________

__________________
Only got A dimple, would have preferred 2!
Gotadimple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 11:29 AM   #23
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
nun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Is there someplace that shows DFA funds are better than Vanguard

I just do not see that in a passive investment.... if they are supposed to follow an index, then you follow the index... anything outside that index is not passive...
I think it comes down to whether DFA's asset mix and when it chooses to ignore indexing and be a bit active produces better returns. We are in to comparing apples and oranges again. I stick with "lower fees better, higher fees worse" and DFA has the advisor fee and slightly higher expense ratios than Vanguard so it's not for me.
__________________
“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

Current AA: 65% Equity Funds / 20% Bonds / 7% Stable Value /3% Cash / 5% TIAA Traditional
Retired Mar 2014 at age 52, target WR: 0.0%,
Income from pension and rent
nun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 11:33 AM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
nun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
Well, it is your opinion. However, I doubt DFA is going to change their business model anytime soon........

I think Fidelity are a bunch of con artists. They tell you they are a direct company on TV, but inundate my mail with propaganda telling me to use their "advisor funds" which underperform and have double the expense ratio of the direct funds, now THAT is a con!
Yep you have to be careful whatever the firm. None are altruistic, but I prefer the direct companies because there'e one less level of management between me and their cons services and promotions.
__________________
“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

Current AA: 65% Equity Funds / 20% Bonds / 7% Stable Value /3% Cash / 5% TIAA Traditional
Retired Mar 2014 at age 52, target WR: 0.0%,
Income from pension and rent
nun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 12:11 PM   #25
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
DFA Vs. Vanguard: Another Take - CBS News

Here is a link I found about DFA and Vangaurd...........
Thanks for the link....

I then went to the one mentioned in the article and it had more info from a study.

"The findings from the study
Tower and Zhang looked at equity returns of DFA and Vanguard funds from the end of 1982, when DFA data became available, until August 31, 2009. The findings surprised me.
The DFA equity portfolio has not consistently outperformed the Vanguard equity portfolio. Over the entire life of the DFA equity portfolio, its return is less than that of the Vanguard equity portfolio, even without adding in adviser and transaction fees for the DFA portfolio. However, for the period of the start of the growth stock bubble (end of 1995) through August 31, 2009, DFA, even with an adviser and transaction fee of up to 1%/year, out-returned the Vanguard portfolio.
Thus, according to the study, the answer is dependent upon which period of time is being studied. Ed Tower noted to me that the DFA portfolio showed less volatility, which is one measure of risk. The question of which is better remains unanswered, especially going forward."


So, from a fund perspective they seem to be a wash... or close enough... but the DFA also has an advisor fee tacked on top which to me makes it worse over time... However, if you feel like you need an advisor, these funds do appear to be better than all the high fee and even load funds that a number of advisors push...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 12:13 PM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,288
Also from the article...

Fees and minimums: Low cost investment manager, Portfolio Solutions


This seem to be a better advisor... fee of .25% with a minimum of $625 per qtr...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 12:44 PM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,899
I think that there is an appeal to paying a certain amount for something - sort of an implied value.

I was always amazed at the people that "just felt better" in a higher priced Mercury even though it was a Ford with a different grill.
__________________
Yes, I have achieved work / life balance.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 12:46 PM   #28
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Finance Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelover View Post
I think that there is an appeal to paying a certain amount for something - sort of an implied value.

I was always amazed at the people that "just felt better" in a higher priced Mercury even though it was a Ford with a different grill.
LOL....I'm a car guy so I really get that.

Did you know the Pontiac Fiero rear suspension was the exact same as the FRONT suspension of a Chevy Chevette? It's true...I used to be an auto mechanic. Try ordering a rear ball joint for a Fiero, write down the part number, then call back and order a FRONT ball joint for a Citation.
__________________
"Live every day as if it were your last, and one day you'll be right" - unknown
Finance Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 01:43 PM   #29
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelover View Post
I think that there is an appeal to paying a certain amount for something - sort of an implied value.

I was always amazed at the people that "just felt better" in a higher priced Mercury even though it was a Ford with a different grill.

Not quite the same.... sure, the mechanical parts are the same, but the Mecury does have more 'stuff' inside... now, you can argue that the cost is not worth it, but it is not only the grill that is different...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 02:02 PM   #30
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by nun View Post
Pretty much nailed it in my opinion.
As a DIYer I totally agree with you. However, there are people out there who want or need the help and the advisers service that group.
__________________
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 02:32 PM   #31
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 702
I was recently in the same position as you are. About the same size of managed investment and the same annual fees. I got into semi-retirement and then retirement I wanted more control over things. Several years ago I took a portion of the funds (400k) and invested it myself. I found that my own investment picks were doing as well as those of the advisor.

The advisor raised their fees by about 4k per year and I decided to do it myself to avoid this increase.

I have learned much on this board and also by joining the American Association of Individual Investors along with some other publications and seminars.

I am now at Schwab which offers many educational seminars both on line and in their offices.
__________________
FreeAtLast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 03:41 PM   #32
Full time employment: Posting here.
urn2bfree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 711
Speaking of Schwab and fees

I am confused about the fees at Schwab-
IF I buy a fund thru Fidelity they charge me $17 per purchase of mutual fund whether I buy $2000 or $20000 worth of the fund-
at Schwab they want $75-per fund transaction...
I get that the difference is not huge in the scheme of my portfolio size "percentage wise"---I just dont get why there is such a difference which "percentage wise" is actually 441% higher for Schwab.
__________________
urn2bfree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 03:44 PM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by urn2bfree View Post
Speaking of Schwab and fees

I am confused about the fees at Schwab-
IF I buy a fund thru Fidelity they charge me $17 per purchase of mutual fund whether I buy $2000 or $20000 worth of the fund-
at Schwab they want $75-per fund transaction...
I get that the difference is not huge in the scheme of my portfolio size "percentage wise"---I just dont get why there is such a difference which "percentage wise" is actually 441% higher for Schwab.
What in Gawd's name are you buying at Schwab? They offer no transaction fees on hundreds of funds in every conceivable asset class, an ever growing suite of their own ETFs that you can trade commission free, and access to who knows how many 3rd party ETFs that you can trade for $8 a trade or whatever it is.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 03:46 PM   #34
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by urn2bfree View Post
Speaking of Schwab and fees

I am confused about the fees at Schwab-
IF I buy a fund thru Fidelity they charge me $17 per purchase of mutual fund whether I buy $2000 or $20000 worth of the fund-
at Schwab they want $75-per fund transaction...
I get that the difference is not huge in the scheme of my portfolio size "percentage wise"---I just dont get why there is such a difference which "percentage wise" is actually 441% higher for Schwab.

Sounds like a reason not to be at Schwab.... or Fidelity for that matter..
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 04:15 PM   #35
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Not quite the same.... sure, the mechanical parts are the same, but the Mercury does have more 'stuff' inside... now, you can argue that the cost is not worth it, but it is not only the grill that is different...
I worked long enough designing that "stuff" that I know what was really different and what was glitter.
__________________
Yes, I have achieved work / life balance.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 04:46 PM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finance Dave View Post
LOL....I'm a car guy so I really get that.

Did you know the Pontiac Fiero rear suspension was the exact same as the FRONT suspension of a Chevy Chevette? It's true...I used to be an auto mechanic. Try ordering a rear ball joint for a Fiero, write down the part number, then call back and order a FRONT ball joint for a Citation.
How about ordering GMC Sierra trucks, and then getting GMC Sierra trucks with Chevy steering wheels in them? True story.........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 04:50 PM   #37
Full time employment: Posting here.
urn2bfree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud

Sounds like a reason not to be at Schwab.... or Fidelity for that matter..
That is the charge for DFA funds as they are not on the no charge lists....it adds little but the difference between them is notable.
__________________
urn2bfree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 04:58 PM   #38
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by urn2bfree View Post
Speaking of Schwab and fees

I am confused about the fees at Schwab-
IF I buy a fund thru Fidelity they charge me $17 per purchase of mutual fund whether I buy $2000 or $20000 worth of the fund-
at Schwab they want $75-per fund transaction...
I get that the difference is not huge in the scheme of my portfolio size "percentage wise"---I just dont get why there is such a difference which "percentage wise" is actually 441% higher for Schwab.
There is an easy explanation. Your DFA advisors belong to a broker/dealer who uses Schwab as a custodian. Schwab's DIRECT accounts have much lower fees. But, the broker/dealer wants to make a PROFIT, so they mark up the fees above what Schwab charges them to conduct business and it becomes a profit center for the broker/dealer. Schwab will charge $8 for a direct customer to execute a trade, but charge $15 to a broker/dealer using them as a custodian. Then the broker/dealer marks up the stock trade commission some and the advisor some more. $75 is high, our ticket charges are $15 on most of the ones we have to pay a charge on. We mark up from there but not that much......
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 05:03 PM   #39
Full time employment: Posting here.
urn2bfree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 711
No I dont think the $75 fee or the $17 are in any way tied to the broker or my advisor- that goes to SCHWAB or FIDELITY (We use Fidelity, but I shopped around to see where to have our account custodially held and asked those places the charges- without any mention of advisors or anything.)
__________________
urn2bfree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 05:12 PM   #40
Recycles dryer sheets
justplainbll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Easten Long Island
Posts: 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by urn2bfree View Post
Speaking of Schwab and fees

I am confused about the fees at Schwab-
IF I buy a fund thru Fidelity they charge me $17 per purchase of mutual fund whether I buy $2000 or $20000 worth of the fund-
at Schwab they want $75-per fund transaction...
I get that the difference is not huge in the scheme of my portfolio size "percentage wise"---I just dont get why there is such a difference which "percentage wise" is actually 441% higher for Schwab.
Fidelity's fees for MF purchases vary based on account balances, and which fund is being purchased. Merrill Lynch Edge account customers cannot even buy many mutual funds (EG ACITX) that are not on they're availability list.
__________________

__________________
justplainbll is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The genesis of "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement" Nords Life after FIRE 5 03-29-2012 03:07 PM
financial planner....how to choose one infoseeker FIRE and Money 137 01-30-2012 12:15 PM
2011 Best & Worst Financial Predictions Midpack FIRE and Money 7 01-13-2012 12:16 PM
Choosing a financial invester! lacawac FIRE and Money 21 01-10-2012 11:18 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:29 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.