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Old 04-22-2016, 03:56 PM   #121
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talk to Vanguard directly about their services and let us know you feelings about that comparison. (0.3% AUM if you have them fully manage your funds, could be free for just periodic discussions depending on your asset level).
While the Vanguard "service" might be an improvement over some other sources of portfolio management help, 0.3% still seems obscenely expensive for what you get.
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Old 04-22-2016, 04:00 PM   #122
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Even those who like FA's have to acknowledge what I think is painfully obvious. There are simply way too many "horror stories" in comparison to the the few good ones. This can't be random.
If it walks like a duck, yadda yadda yadda. At some point there has to be recognition that in general the FA is not one to be trusted, and certainly does not have the client's interest foremost in mind. Every anecdotal exception is just that - exception to the rule.
For what it's worth, I think you're spot on. There is a mountain of evidence to support your conclusion.
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Old 04-22-2016, 08:57 PM   #123
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For what it's worth, I think you're spot on. There is a mountain of evidence to support your conclusion.
People with complaints are multiple times, like 10x+, more vocal than those with compliments. I base this on working at a consumer products company whose multiple $100M+/yr sales products all received 10x+ complaints over product compliments.

What's the statistical evidence, not voluntary comments, that FA's aren't worthwhile given every comment on here by nature is anecdotal? I mean what's the relative amount of money invested by DIYers than with FA's?
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Old 04-22-2016, 09:09 PM   #124
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The difficulty is that so many FAs are simply something silly like "Registered Client Representative" or "Certified Retirement Counselor" or the like, which means nothing and tends to muddy the waters.
What muddies the water is equating these folks with FA's.
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Old 04-22-2016, 09:17 PM   #125
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Even those who like FA's have to acknowledge what I think is painfully obvious. There are simply way too many "horror stories" in comparison to the the few good ones. This can't be random.
If it walks like a duck, yadda yadda yadda. At some point there has to be recognition that in general the FA is not one to be trusted, and certainly does not have the client's interest foremost in mind. Every anecdotal exception is just that - exception to the rule.
People with complaints are multiple times, like 10x+, more vocal than those with compliments. I base this on working at a consumer products company whose multiple $100M+/yr sales products all received 10x+ complaints over product compliments.

What's the statistical evidence, not voluntary comments, that FA's aren't worthwhile given every comment on here by nature is anecdotal? I mean what's the relative amount of money invested by DIYers than with FA's/WM's? How many people each year ditch their FA & go DIY vs. the number that newly select an FA? Give us some facts.

When you can provide statistical data backed conclusions, I will buy that "there has to be recognition that in general the FA is not one to be trusted, and certainly does not have the client's interest foremost in mind.". Until then, I will believe anti-FA people just have an axe to grind. I get this forum is overwhelmingly populated by DIY types, but that's no reason to defame a group as a whole.
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Old 04-23-2016, 05:03 AM   #126
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People with complaints are multiple times, like 10x+, more vocal than those with compliments. I base this on working at a consumer products company whose multiple $100M+/yr sales products all received 10x+ complaints over product compliments.

What's the statistical evidence, not voluntary comments, that FA's aren't worthwhile given every comment on here by nature is anecdotal? I mean what's the relative amount of money invested by DIYers than with FA's?
Simple math and common sense provide all the evidence one needs to conclude FAs do not add value. The fact that there are so many examples to support the conclusion is icing on the cake. Many brilliant investment minds, such as Warren Buffett and John Bogle, have concluded the same thing.

But let's turn this around, where's your evidence that they add value?
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Old 04-23-2016, 07:47 AM   #127
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People with complaints are multiple times, like 10x+, more vocal than those with compliments. I base this on working at a consumer products company whose multiple $100M+/yr sales products all received 10x+ complaints over product compliments.

What's the statistical evidence, not voluntary comments, that FA's aren't worthwhile given every comment on here by nature is anecdotal? I mean what's the relative amount of money invested by DIYers than with FA's/WM's? How many people each year ditch their FA & go DIY vs. the number that newly select an FA? Give us some facts.

When you can provide statistical data backed conclusions, I will buy that "there has to be recognition that in general the FA is not one to be trusted, and certainly does not have the client's interest foremost in mind.". Until then, I will believe anti-FA people just have an axe to grind. I get this forum is overwhelmingly populated by DIY types, but that's no reason to defame a group as a whole.

Agree 100% but if people realized what the FA was costing them on annual basis I'm sure the number of complaints would soar. For most there is no easy way to determine what the cost is due to the smoke and mirrors that the industry loves. If people would receive a statement at year end to show the FA's performance as compared to the benchmarks along with a bill for services rendered, I'm sure it would be an eye opener for many.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:27 AM   #128
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I refuse to go to someone that will sell me anything.. here is the link of the guy that I am going to in the atanta area
Regency Financial Planning, Personal Financial Planning

I am going to my free visit on may 11, and will report back to the group. He said before we contract with him that he will tell us up front to what the charges will be.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:41 AM   #129
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In many years of systems consulting, I belonged to an organization that did not permit recommendations for something you had an interest in. IOW, you were truly a consultant and affirmed that you did not benefit from what the client purchased.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:54 AM   #130
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People with complaints are multiple times, like 10x+, more vocal than those with compliments. I base this on working at a consumer products company whose multiple $100M+/yr sales products all received 10x+ complaints over product compliments.

What's the statistical evidence, not voluntary comments, that FA's aren't worthwhile given every comment on here by nature is anecdotal? I mean what's the relative amount of money invested by DIYers than with FA's/WM's? How many people each year ditch their FA & go DIY vs. the number that newly select an FA? Give us some facts.

When you can provide statistical data backed conclusions, I will buy that "there has to be recognition that in general the FA is not one to be trusted, and certainly does not have the client's interest foremost in mind.". Until then, I will believe anti-FA people just have an axe to grind. I get this forum is overwhelmingly populated by DIY types, but that's no reason to defame a group as a whole.
You could search through the forums and find lots of statistical evidence for poor comparative performance of typical FA supported results versus simple market based DIY index portfolios. But I would simply turn your question on it's head: what real evidence do you have that people using FAs do better than their peers choosing a DIY approach? The fact that most investors use FAs and that many or most of them are satisfied with those FAs, is not evidence that they are doing better than they would with a simple coach potato DIY approach. The bottom line is that there may be lots of reasons why people use or need FAs but none of those reasons speak to a DIYer who has done a modicum of research.
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Old 04-23-2016, 09:21 AM   #131
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...Might be worth noting that Sarah in SC, one of the forum's moderators, is a financial advisor out there in the real world.
And we love Sarah in SC so our bias against FAs is not that deep since we know there are some good ones out there.

I DIY because it would take me as long to select a good FA and oversee what they do as it does to select some good investments and oversee the investments. I fact, I would say I am much more comfortable in my ability to select good investments than I am with my ability to select a good FA since many of them are "all hat, no cattle".

While I probably spend more time than is necessary puttering around with our portfolio because I enjoy it and have the time, if I had to I could easily whittle the time down to less 12 hours a year.

OTOH, there certainly are people whose make-up is not compatible with DIY investing and need a FA... and if they can find a good one (and there are good ones out there) then that is an ideal solution for those people. The problem that I have is separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to selecting FAs.
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Old 04-23-2016, 11:35 AM   #132
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I have a former work colleague who has just a big name advisory firm for some time.
Out of the blue, he calls me to explore how I manage our portfolio. Seems he finally did the math on performance over the last few years vs cost and realized he was doing a very good job funding their retirement; his not so much.
I sent him this link on the type of expenses he was paying and why his results were not keeping up. An X-ray of one affluent, educated and sophisticated investor's portfolio shows how it was chewed up by fees | RIABiz
This forensic examination is for me one of the most telling of the real shenanigans that an FA organization can get away with.
Also suggested he read a couple Rick Ferri books on asset allocation and how he could simply his investments (he professed a desire to not have to "manage all the details") and handily beat what he was current getting.
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Old 04-23-2016, 05:26 PM   #133
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Simple math and common sense provide all the evidence one needs to conclude FAs do not add value. The fact that there are so many examples to support the conclusion is icing on the cake. Many brilliant investment minds, such as Warren Buffett and John Bogle, have concluded the same thing.

But let's turn this around, where's your evidence that they add value?
First off, it's not common sense that making decisions alone is the better choice. You can have 10K examples of outcomes of voluntary comments and they aren't representative of the whole because they are self-selected. It's the difference between call-in polls & scientific polls. And even the latter aren't always reliable.

Why turn it around? I'm not doing the bashing based on anecdotal data. If people just said they like doing it themselves & think they can equal or beat an advisor, fine. But to condemn an industry/businesses based on opinion/judgment is uncalled for to me.
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Old 04-23-2016, 05:29 PM   #134
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Simple math and common sense provide all the evidence one needs to conclude FAs do not add value. The fact that there are so many examples to support the conclusion is icing on the cake. Many brilliant investment minds, such as Warren Buffett and John Bogle, have concluded the same thing.

But let's turn this around, where's your evidence that they add value?
I wouldn't call Buffett & Bogle many. Funny how many people rely on Buffett thru Berkshire Hathaway & Bogle thru his funds for advice.
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Old 04-23-2016, 06:41 PM   #135
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You could search through the forums and find lots of statistical evidence for poor comparative performance of typical FA supported results versus simple market based DIY index portfolios. But I would simply turn your question on it's head: what real evidence do you have that people using FAs do better than their peers choosing a DIY approach? The fact that most investors use FAs and that many or most of them are satisfied with those FAs, is not evidence that they are doing better than they would with a simple coach potato DIY approach. The bottom line is that there may be lots of reasons why people use or need FAs but none of those reasons speak to a DIYer who has done a modicum of research.
I don't have the evidence either way. But I'm not calling DIY's low life scum as FA's are described by some DIY's here, am I?. Those that do disdain FA's ought to back it up with more than an instance here & there to generalize. When I start saying DIY's are wrong & hurting themselves, I'll have hard data. The only thing I'm speaking to is the generalized bashing of FA's here.
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Old 04-23-2016, 07:00 PM   #136
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This may be of interest to anyone who is interested in thoughts about whether an advisor can add value: https://pressroom.vanguard.com/conte..._3.10.2014.pdf
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Old 04-23-2016, 07:08 PM   #137
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I don't have the evidence either way. But I'm not calling DIY's low life scum as FA's are described by some DIY's here, am I?. Those that do disdain FA's ought to back it up with more than an instance here & there to generalize. When I start saying DIY's are wrong & hurting themselves, I'll have hard data. The only thing I'm speaking to is the generalized bashing of FA's here.
I posted this link on another thread but would suggest it appropriately provides some your request for "hard data"
An X-ray of one affluent, educated and sophisticated investor's portfolio shows how it was chewed up by fees | RIABiz
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:43 PM   #138
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I don't have the evidence either way. But I'm not calling DIY's low life scum as FA's are described by some DIY's here, am I?. Those that do disdain FA's ought to back it up with more than an instance here & there to generalize. When I start saying DIY's are wrong & hurting themselves, I'll have hard data. The only thing I'm speaking to is the generalized bashing of FA's here.
I had decided to back out of this thread, since a couple posters seemed to think I was being over the top or something. But for two reasons (I'll skip the second for now), I'll rejoin.

First reason, I detected a straw-man in that quote above, and I just hate straw-men! So I took the time to re-read this entire thread (admit to some skimming, but mostly the pro-FA posts). And I didn't see a single comment calling out FA's as 'low life scum' or any such thing (even allowing for some 'poetic license'). So if you are looking for people to back up their statements with data, how about you go first - where is the 'bashing' and name calling?

Here's the closest I found:

#82 --
Quote:
I'll spend time showing people I care about that their FA is fleecing them, my mom being the primary example. While that isn't the case for all FAs, it is true for many.
OK, 'fleecing' them (but that wasn't an assumption, it was to be shown after taking some time) - and an immediate caveat that it doesn't apply to all.

#118
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At some point there has to be recognition that in general the FA is not one to be trusted, and certainly does not have the client's interest foremost in mind.
Well, I'm not sure that is 'bashing' even? In any financial transaction, I think it's good advice to not 'trust' the other person, but to have safeguards in place. And the caveat again "in general" - he expressed an opinion that the FA does not have the client's interest foremost in mind. That's pretty true in any business transaction (look out for #1) , so I don't see that as shocking.

And the very next two posts countered that as an over-generalization.

then post #122 did agree.

But to put that in perspective, in post #28, gerntz himself did say:
Quote:
I mean every advisor I think is trying to extract as much as possible for their business model, DFA access or not. It's their livelihood. Not at all sinister.
Not so very different, no?

My sense, when I re-read this thread, was that people mostly said that if there was something you really need help with, pay by the hour rather than a % of AUM. That's a long way from bashing and name-calling, in my book. It strikes me as just reasoned analysis of the situation. A pretty positive thing for a financial discussion forum, IMO.

-ERD50
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:53 PM   #139
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Oh, there you go again ERD50... letting facts get in the way of a good rant. When are you going to learn?
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:57 PM   #140
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This may be of interest to anyone who is interested in thoughts about whether an advisor can add value: https://pressroom.vanguard.com/conte..._3.10.2014.pdf
But whoa... I and many others on this forum who DIY already do all of that stuff that adds value. once you've been around here a while you'll see plenty of threads on asset allocation, using low cost funds, rebalancing, staying the course in times of volatility, tax efficient placement, optimal withdrawal strategies and total return investing. None of it is rocket science.
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