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Old 01-11-2013, 08:46 AM   #41
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I have seen several suggestions for the yours, mine and ours accounts, which is how DH and I handle our money. I am not convinced that will solve the problem.

E.g. Overspender has no money left to pay the bills or share the cost of a wonderful once-in-a-lifetime vacation. What does the saver do? Leave the bills unpaid? Take the vacation alone? I can't see that the saver wouldn't end up shouldering the bills continuously.

IMHO couples need to compromise on the spending/saving. Even DH and I don't agree on all of our expenditures, but we compromise.

I also think OP that you are unintentionally enabling, sorry, but it's true. I wish you good luck as you are right, you can't get your wife to change, she has to see the light and make that decision herself. Spending is emotional or even an addiction for some folks.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:25 AM   #42
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Going all the way back to the original post -

lots of people are used to living paycheck-to-paycheck. Money in the checking account is there so it can be spent. If they save, it's because they use automatic payroll deduction and the money never makes it to the checking account.

This is a simple form of financial management that works for some people.

For this type of person, annuitizing that 401k at retirement may well be a good management approach. People who post here would say it's not optimal, and it's not for the LBYM types who post here. But, I can easily see it working for many people.

So, if the original poster is committed to a marriage with a person with this personality, than annuitizing at some point makes a lot of sense to me. I've heard the phrase "using an annuity to build a retirement paycheck", that's reasonably accurate.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:06 AM   #43
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Lots of interesting views of the situation coming out on this thread. I should add a little more now.

DW's spending certainly does have an emotional aspect and we do have to sort of tiptoe around each other when discussing the issue. But then, nearly every couple I know does this about one issue or another. I think that is just typical of marriage in the 50's age range and maybe all age ranges.

As someone said I am like a congressman kicking the can down the road. The emotional and relationship issues are much tougher to deal with for me than actual strategies (OK I admit being a wimp)

Getting back to strategies:

My original post was about annuities but I have had a couple other ideas too.

1. She had me set up her tax withholding on her employer website and I arranged for more to be held back than needed, so she will save a little there without knowing it. This is just minor though.

2 I've told her that when it comes time to sell our current house (with a flight of steps) and move to a single level place for old age that the formula for how much we can pay for the next home (in cash) will be: sales price of current home minus agent commission minus moving expenses minus her spending deficit while employed. This may really have an impact because she is MUCH more concerned with her home environment than I am. I could just about live in a tent and be OK. I will not care that much about the details of the house as long as its not in a crime ridden area.

Logic DOES work with her sometimes about spending. I just have to be aware that what moves her to change may be nothing like what would move me.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:28 AM   #44
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Lots of interesting views of the situation coming out on this thread. I should add a little more now.

DW's spending certainly does have an emotional aspect and we do have to sort of tiptoe around each other when discussing the issue. But then, nearly every couple I know does this about one issue or another. I think that is just typical of marriage in the 50's age range and maybe all age ranges.

As someone said I am like a congressman kicking the can down the road. The emotional and relationship issues are much tougher to deal with for me than actual strategies (OK I admit being a wimp)

Getting back to strategies:

My original post was about annuities but I have had a couple other ideas too.

1. She had me set up her tax withholding on her employer website and I arranged for more to be held back than needed, so she will save a little there without knowing it. This is just minor though.

2 I've told her that when it comes time to sell our current house (with a flight of steps) and move to a single level place for old age that the formula for how much we can pay for the next home (in cash) will be: sales price of current home minus agent commission minus moving expenses minus her spending deficit while employed. This may really have an impact because she is MUCH more concerned with her home environment than I am. I could just about live in a tent and be OK. I will not care that much about the details of the house as long as its not in a crime ridden area.

Logic DOES work with her sometimes about spending. I just have to be aware that what moves her to change may be nothing like what would move me.

My comment on your plan.....

Good luck with that.....
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:37 AM   #45
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My comment on your plan.....

Good luck with that.....
+1. A sad situation, sounds like enabling or at the very least skirting the issue (kicking the can). I can't imagine openly trying to trick my spouse on such an important topic (changing her withholding, buying an annuity to protect her from herself). It could end very, very badly one day in the distant future. But 'walk a mile in the other persons shoes I guess...'
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Originally Posted by qxky27
DW's spending certainly does have an emotional aspect and we do have to sort of tiptoe around each other when discussing the issue. But then, nearly every couple I know does this about one issue or another. I think that is just typical of marriage in the 50's age range and maybe all age ranges.
Evidently it's the circles we travel in, but that's not typical of our friends and (most) family at all. While there are indeed minor issues spouses 'tiptoe around' (pick your battles) - letting managing money/expenses be one of the issues could have dire consequences. And it appears most couples here are reasonably if not completely like minded about managing money/expenses.

I guess I need to give DW another extra big hug, the second time resulting from this thread...
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:47 AM   #46
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Buying annuities when it looks like your portfolio is shrinking too fast to fund the rest of your retirement is a standard backup strategy. So it's a reasonable thought.

I'd just keep her working until she can support her current lifestyle. And point out that that's why she's still working. If she's OK with that, then fine. Don't let her eat into your retirement funding.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:36 AM   #47
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I'd just keep her working until she can support her current lifestyle. And point out that that's why she's still working. If she's OK with that, then fine. Don't let her eat into your retirement funding.
People who post this kind of thing must be very docile, and have very docile mates.

People in general do not much like to have things pointed out about them, unless those things are totally and unambiguously wonderful.

And I can't wait until you try to explain to the family court judge how all the money that is left is solely your retirement funds. She ate hers.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:34 PM   #48
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And I can't wait until you try to explain to the family court judge how all the money that is left is solely your retirement funds. She ate hers.
I was thinking that myself. You can give her half now or more than half later.
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:09 PM   #49
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Professional advice from Money:
How to tackle your spouse's overspending - Jan. 7, 2013
Quote:
To broach the topic of overspending without initiating World War III, adopt this game plan.
THE GROUND RULES
Time it right. Choose a time when you're both relaxed, like a weekend morning, and make sure you each have at least half an hour free.
No accusations or hyperbole. Don't start sentences with "You did"; focus on "We." And while comments like "Are you trying to put us in the poorhouse?" may be emotionally satisfying in the moment, they're ineffective in the long run.
Don't use the B-word. "The word 'budget' has a negative connotation," says Price. Instead, come up with a "spending plan" -- a term more likely to resonate with a spendthrift.
Follow up. These chats work best if done on a regular basis. Schedule a monthly money date to stay on track.
YOUR BEST APPROACH
1.Opening gambit: "I'm feeling a little stressed about money. Now that the holidays are over, I'm worried we may have spent too much. Can we talk about our financial plans?"
The strategy: Start by sharing how you're feeling, not what you think your spouse is doing wrong.
"When you do this, the reaction from your partner is more likely to be, 'Oh, I'm causing my partner to feel a certain way,' " says Price. "So he or she is naturally more inclined to say, 'I'm sorry,' rather than become defensive."
More....
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:11 PM   #50
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A plural "your"!

Yes my DW out-LBYM's me.
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:58 PM   #51
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Good luck should you become incapacitated or are declared incompetent, and she has to take over the household finances.

If you and your partner aren't on the same page on important issues like this, you are far better off being single.
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:39 PM   #52
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Hello? His money is her money, they are married. I can't believe some of the posts here. grrrrrrrrrrrrr

Let me give you another thought - I was a over spender, more for convenience (worked long hours) so I would order online for things I thought I needed. I was working and making 6+ figures (as was DH) and we maxed out our 401ks. I was always pulling from savings to pay my credit card in full each month. I was a little worried about how I would do in retirement. But I told myself that if I didn't mend my ways, I would go back to work in some form. That is truly an incentive. My husband was not too worried....mainly about redecorating/remodeling which is my passion.

Well, fact forward 9 months post retirement, and I don't do it anymore. I now realize I was doing it because I was both making my life easier as well as rewarding myself for hard work. (I hated my job as most of us do towards the end).

So I think tracking is really good, and scheduling a financial overview meeting each month so your wife becomes more aware. It might also allow you more insight into exactly what she is spending on which helps both of you. You could also have some sample budgets from couples on here who are retired to show categories such as clothes or other things she overspends on.

Maybe I am wrong, but you are a team, so it's a team issue. Divorce is crazy, way more expensive and awful all around. (you can easily fund her overspending by not paying attorneys fees for divorce!). People do change some. I did.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:31 PM   #53
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Hello? His money is her money, they are married. I can't believe some of the posts here. grrrrrrrrrrrrr

/snip/

Not everybody believes this to be true.... as all the people with his/hers/ours accounts...

Also, a lot of states do not think so either... separate property states...


Then there can be a prenup that says what he has is his separate property.... (also what is hers is hers).....
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:26 PM   #54
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Not everybody believes this to be true.... as all the people with his/hers/ours accounts...

Also, a lot of states do not think so either... separate property states...

His hers ours accounts may have some helpful psychological effect, but they are a fiction. Like the lady says above, they are married! What is his is hers, what is hers is his. (Expecially that first part)

Also there is no such animal as a separate property state. Some years ago Mississippi was the last state to maintain ownership by title. I think that is long gone like the cuckoo bird. There are community property states, but that does not mean mean that other states are separate property states. Most or perhaps all of them use the principle of equitable division, which basically means the property is divided however the judge wants it divided. Even in community property jurisdictions, the community law can be overridden to produce a "more equitable result".

Hint, this will rarely or never be a result that will be welcomed by the gentleman partner. And in case you think that because you earned the higher salary you should get more, think again. This can just as easily be interpreted to mean that she sould get more, because you can easily earn more. Oh, you are retired? I am so sorry, but that is not a value we care about in family court!

I am afraid that Bell Barbara is 100% correct, it is almost certainly cheaper to let her buy whatever she wants, and to be damn nice about it too. You can cut back to make up any shortfall.

Ha
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:38 PM   #55
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His hers ours accounts may have some helpful psychological effect, but they are a fiction. Like the lady says above, they are married! What is his is hers, what is hers is his. (Expecially that first part)

Also there is no such animal as a separate property state. Some years ago Mississippi was the last state to maintain ownership by title. I think that is long gone like the cuckoo bird. There are community property states, but that does not mean mean that other states are separate property states. Most or perhaps all of them use the principle of equitable division, which basically means the property is divided however the judge wants it divided. Even in community property jurisdictions, the community law can be overridden to produce a "more equitable result".

Hint, this will rarely or never be a result that will be welcomed by the gentleman partner. And in case you think that because you earned the higher salary you should get more, think again. This can just as easily be interpreted to mean that she sould get more, because you can easily earn more. Oh, you are retired? I am so sorry, but that is not a value we care about in family court!

I am afraid that Bell Barbara is 100% correct, it is almost certainly cheaper to let her buy whatever she wants, and to be damn nice about it too. You can cut back to make up any shortfall.

Ha
You sound like you speak from experience. I am married but would never do it again. My wife says the same thing.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:42 PM   #56
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His hers ours accounts may have some helpful psychological effect, but they are a fiction. Like the lady says above, they are married! What is his is hers, what is hers is his. (Expecially that first part)

Also there is no such animal as a separate property state. Some years ago Mississippi was the last state to maintain ownership by title. I think that is long gone like the cuckoo bird. There are community property states, but that does not mean mean that other states are separate property states. Most or perhaps all of them use the principle of equitable division, which basically means the property is divided however the judge wants it divided. Even in community property jurisdictions, the community law can be overridden to produce a "more equitable result".

Hint, this will rarely or never be a result that will be welcomed by the gentleman partner. And in case you think that because you earned the higher salary you should get more, think again. This can just as easily be interpreted to mean that she sould get more, because you can easily earn more. Oh, you are retired? I am so sorry, but that is not a value we care about in family court!

I am afraid that Bell Barbara is 100% correct, it is almost certainly cheaper to let her buy whatever she wants, and to be damn nice about it too. You can cut back to make up any shortfall.

Ha
Actually, Texas Family Code Chapter 4, Subchapter B, 4.102 recognizes Partition Agreements (Post-Nuptials) which serve to declare separate assets, property, income, and liabilities. My DW and I had an attorney draft one up late last year; we signed it, had it notarized, and filed it with the county. It clearly and most certainly defines what is mine, what is hers, and what is "shared".
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:31 PM   #57
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Actually, Texas Family Code Chapter 4, Subchapter B, 4.102 recognizes Partition Agreements (Post-Nuptials) which serve to declare separate assets, property, income, and liabilities. My DW and I had an attorney draft one up late last year; we signed it, had it notarized, and filed it with the county. It clearly and most certainly defines what is mine, what is hers, and what is "shared".
Yes, I really know nothing about this as I am not married and will never be married again. I am talking only about the commonly referenced his/hers/our informal arrangements.

Prenups, post-nups, never wanna nups-all technical things that are well beyond this simpleton who learned one thing, but learned it well. Do not let her sleep over.
Wake up, get outta here! That coach is starting to smell kinda pumpkin-like.
Ha
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:20 PM   #58
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Hello? His money is her money, they are married. I can't believe some of the posts here. grrrrrrrrrrrrr

.
I don't believe my husband's money is mine. Instead, we believe that our money is ours. It's a bit of a distinction from the "whats yours is mine" mindset. Meaning every dollar is owned jointly, and all spending decisions are subject to joint review. We're both accountable for making and sticking to our budget. We have extra money in savings, it doesn't mean I get to hit the mall.

If I want to purchase something outside the budget, I ask. So does he. We both own every dollar, together.

To each their own, but I like the way we do it.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:30 PM   #59
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Yes, I really know nothing about this as I am not married and will never be married again. I am talking only about the commonly referenced his/hers/our informal arrangements.
Prenups, post-nups, never wanna nups-all technical things that are well beyond this simpleton who learned one thing, but learned it well. Do not let her sleep over.
Wake up, get outta here! That coach is starting to smell kinda pumpkin-like.
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Wise words, indeed.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:28 PM   #60
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+1

I wonder if a couple gets married when they are young that the chance of this situation developing is higher. When newlyweds start their life together and build up everything from scratch, they tend to share responsibility and wealth.

It could be my imagination, but I suppose if I get married later in life once I have made and saved a lot of money on my own, I would be less trustful of my new mate, or at least less willing to share.

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I don't believe my husband's money is mine. Instead, we believe that our money is ours. It's a bit of a distinction from the "whats yours is mine" mindset. Meaning every dollar is owned jointly, and all spending decisions are subject to joint review. We're both accountable for making and sticking to our budget. We have extra money in savings, it doesn't mean I get to hit the mall.

If I want to purchase something outside the budget, I ask. So does he. We both own every dollar, together.

To each their own, but I like the way we do it.
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