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Old 01-30-2008, 12:00 PM   #41
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As everyone seems to acknowledge, Florida have a problem with its tax system. Do you think they will ever buy having an income tax?
I guess anything is possible, but I think it would be a death sentence for any politician proposing it. Florida salaries are not good when you look at other areas of the country with similarly priced homes and COL. It may end up happening eventually, but I doubt it will happen in the foreseeable future.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:05 PM   #42
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As everyone seems to acknowledge, Florida have a problem with its tax system. Do you think they will ever buy having an income tax?
It would take extreme circumstances. Can't see it happening otherwise.

As many of us who have moved a few times know, it's close to a zero sum game when it comes to state revenues. Low property tax? Pay income tax and private school tuitions. Low income tax? Pay sales tax. They even used to tax investment assets here (not any longer). Skip the workarounds? End up with failed school systems, deficient services, mounting poverty and watch the brain drain and solid-worker drain.

So, like 73ss454 says, just buck up and pay out. Or choose a state whose idiosynchracies play to your strong suit, if your life circumstances permit.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:18 PM   #43
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the other issue is that changing from property tax to income tax would likely involve a constitutional amendment and for that we now need a 60% majority to pass. so between the homeowners enjoying soh and nonhomeowners not enjoying low wages, 60% is very far away.

of course, by the time all that was worked out, enough years will have passed that even 73ss454 would be enjoying his soh value and wouldn't vote for it either. (just playing with you--didn't mean to start anything.)
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:23 PM   #44
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at that time, how quickly prices could rise here likely wasn't even apparent in places outside of south florida which is a highly desirable area for growth but limited in land by both the atlantic ocean and the everglades. but florida in general will likely always attract speculation of both domestic and international investors and its desirability for residence likely won't subside at least until global warming sinks us.

i don't hear anyone complain how this type of taxing structure has hurt california real estate, we are still a huge bargain compared to them as well florida shields income from taxation so i would imagine it will still attract newcomers who can stomach our apparent inequities even though they still come out ahead.
That is wishful thinking. Potential migrants to Florida are waking up to what is going on and I personally know people who have written off FL as a place to own property. As long as you recognize this system is not sustainable long term. The disparities will continue to grow and the system will have to stall and potentially collapse, either by civil unrest between the haves and have nots, an exodus of those who will no longer support such inequities and/or a cessation of in-migration. It will happen, it is just a matter of when. Floridians need to start thinking about what the solution will ultimately be.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:31 PM   #45
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I lived in Florida for 20 years and moved out in 2004. While I benefited from lower taxes (about a third of one neighbors but more than double another) I never saw the law as fair. Adding portability means that first time buyers are going to be hit even harder in the future. (By no means do I plan to go back) I am sorry that it may be tough on older fixed income residents but they should be paying their fair share.

I am surprised that no CA residents have weighed in on this. When I visited friends in San Jose 10 years ago, they already had a very similar situation where nobody could afford to move or remodel. CA is a beautiful state and I plan to VISIT it frequently once FIREd.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:48 PM   #46
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my statement wasn't meant as anything more serious than a measured response to your little hissy fit. however, realizing your understandable frustration in all this, i should have more compassion and patience in me than what i mustered there.

when i bought in my area, at the birth of soh, i pioneered with others of my ilk into a depressed area writhe with drugs, crime and white flight because we saw the potential, because we took the chance, because we were willing to put forth our own efforts to improve this area which has become highly desirable since. my property value has increased about fivefold** even after the great bubblepop. but that took a lot of volunteer work and a lot of personal risk.

now that we've made our area safe and profitable, lots of businesses are in town. our main street is filled with bars and restaurants which are so busy almost every night that we've had to convert park space to parking. lots of people making lots of money on their businesses and on their houses and on efforts which were not theirs.

will i be getting a cut of their profits for all the years of volunteer hours and efforts of mine which made their present profits possible? isn't that a two way street as well? or is it only a two way street when both ways go your way?

**edit: clarification. property hasn't doubled five times but it is now valued at about 5 times my purchase price.
You still refuse to answer the question. What makes you think you should pay less than your neighbor for the same services because you bought earlier?

You are the one who brought up the fact that you paid for the infrastructure so you should pay less than your neighbors. You really think this is right. No sense going back and forth with someone who doesn't get it.

Is everyone on the thread wrong except you and the people it helps.

So if I wait long enough I'll get the advantage also. Let's see I'll get a job to beat the state taxes and wait till I'm 72 to get tax relief. Right!

Even the folks that live in Fla. know it's wrong, everyone except you.

Just admit it's wrong and that your taking advantage of a situation that benefits you.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:59 PM   #47
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Could one of you guys give an estimate or guess at what the tax differential would be for a new buyer vs a 20 year resident in some example? Say a home with a market value of $250k. That would help us flatlanders understand the level of inequity we're talking about.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:07 PM   #48
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Could one of you guys give an estimate or guess at what the tax differential would be for a new buyer vs a 20 year resident in some example? Say a home with a market value of $250k. That would help us flatlanders understand the level of inequity we're talking about.
Huge diff, but the only example I can give is mine.

I bought my house in Fla. April 2003, I couldn't homestead because I was still living NY. I paid 300K at the time and my taxes were $2800. They continued to go up every year as if I were a new resident because I was not eligible for the 3% cap. Last year they went up to $8600 and when I homesteaded, also last year they dropped to $8100.

As LG4NB stated when he took over his mom's house his went up to 17K. It would be interesting to see what his mom was payiing but a guess would be around 6K.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:29 PM   #49
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The disparities will continue to grow and the system will have to stall and potentially collapse, either by civil unrest between the haves and have nots, an exodus of those who will no longer support such inequities and/or a cessation of in-migration. It will happen, it is just a matter of when. Floridians need to start thinking about what the solution will ultimately be.
to that, time will tell. as california is years ahead of us on this, i look foward to watching news of civil war breaking out there as our early warning. whether or not inequities exist at this point is almost moot because of the unlikely 60% vote required to change that. we're a bit stuck with this. hopefully florida will find a way to tweek the current system and make more people happier.

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I am surprised that no CA residents have weighed in on this. When I visited friends in San Jose 10 years ago, they already had a very similar situation where nobody could afford to move or remodel. CA is a beautiful state and I plan to VISIT it frequently once FIREd.
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You still refuse to answer the question. What makes you think you should pay less than your neighbor for the same services because you bought earlier?

You are the one who brought up the fact that you paid for the infrastructure so you should pay less than your neighbors. You really think this is right. No sense going back and forth with someone who doesn't get it.

Is everyone on the thread wrong except you and the people it helps.

So if I wait long enough I'll get the advantage also. Let's see I'll get a job to beat the state taxes and wait till I'm 72 to get tax relief. Right!

Even the folks that live in Fla. know it's wrong, everyone except you.

Just admit it's wrong and that your taking advantage of a situation that benefits you.
i was more than satisfied with the level of civil service i received for my taxes when i first bought here. my property has since revalued annually at the inflation rate and has been taxed on that which should buy me the same level of service today. just like yours will now be increasing at the inflation rate from when you bought.

so here is your answer, like it or not: as more service is required due to population growth, i have no problem with the newer people paying for that. so there!

do i think it should be more fair than it is, yes, i do. do i think homesteaded properties should go up only 3% while nonhomesteaded go up 10%? i think that is a bit of a spread. are there other areas to tweek. of course there are.

do i think it is fair of you to say i am taking advantage of a situation? actually, i think that is kind of rude of you. just because i happen to benefit more than most does not mean that i was out to take advantage or to screw anyone. luck fell my way on this one. just as soon as you give up all the lucky things in life that came your way, i'll consider giving up my homestead exemption for you.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:39 PM   #50
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As LG4NB stated when he took over his mom's house his went up to 17K. It would be interesting to see what his mom was payiing but a guess would be around 6K.
From his prior post:

by the way, you're talking to a guy who is paying $17k on my inherited house which used to cost us only $5k.


so as you can see, a big difference in the tax liability of the same residents... if you had lived there for a long time, only $5K, but move in there now and it is $17K... that is a LOT of tax relief for the 'old folks'....


But nobody has addressed the fact that it is the bloated budgets that is creating the problem, not the value of the property... you reduce the spending and the tax rate comes down....

And if EVERYBODY's house goes up at the same rate, there should be no difference in tax liability from year to year UNLESS they are spending the windfall taxes they are getting from the higher value... the tax system is not what needs fixing, but the BUDGET that it is paying for....
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:42 PM   #51
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Sorry you think I'm rude but grandstanding about how you think this is right is, well is just wrong.

Your entitled to get what you can get like everyone else in this world just don't try to justify a wrong.

Good luck with the sale of both of your properties, your going to need it. At least maybe now you'll get a Floridian with a good homestead advantage to buy them.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:49 PM   #52
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From his prior post:

by the way, you're talking to a guy who is paying $17k on my inherited house which used to cost us only $5k.


so as you can see, a big difference in the tax liability of the same residents... if you had lived there for a long time, only $5K, but move in there now and it is $17K... that is a LOT of tax relief for the 'old folks'....


But nobody has addressed the fact that it is the bloated budgets that is creating the problem, not the value of the property... you reduce the spending and the tax rate comes down....

And if EVERYBODY's house goes up at the same rate, there should be no difference in tax liability from year to year UNLESS they are spending the windfall taxes they are getting from the higher value... the tax system is not what needs fixing, but the BUDGET that it is paying for....
Even if everyone's house goes up at the same rate everyone is still paying diff. taxes based on when they bought the house.

I'm all for tax relief for old folks, after all I'm old.

I'm sure LG4NB doesn't mind paying the 17K on a one million dollar profit. If he does I'll take over half of the taxes and we can split the profit once he sells.

Just looking for an even playing field so I pay the same taxes as my neighbor for the same value house and services.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:10 PM   #53
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Even if everyone's house goes up at the same rate everyone is still paying diff. taxes based on when they bought the house.

.....

Just looking for an even playing field so I pay the same taxes as my neighbor for the same value house and services.
I was talking about the other states that don't have the freeze... everybody pays the same 'rate', but the rate would go down by the same percentage houses go up (in theory) if the budget does not change...

I agree... pull your weight... pay your fair share...



The only semi-good argument that someone has said is because of 'poor old folks' being taxed out of thier houses... well, I bet money that number is VERY VERY small... probably less than 1/2% and I think that is being very kind on the high side...
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:32 PM   #54
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Could one of you guys give an estimate or guess at what the tax differential would be for a new buyer vs a 20 year resident in some example? Say a home with a market value of $250k. That would help us flatlanders understand the level of inequity we're talking about.
My house is 3600 sq.ft . I paid $350,000 in 2001. My taxes are $4,900 . My house is valued at $743,000 .My neighbor has a 1800 sq. ft. house bought in 2006 for $315,00 .Their taxes are $7,000.Their house is valued at $350,000.My neighor across the street who's lot alone is worth $500,000 bought his small house 11 years ago and his taxes are $2,200.So you see it's crazy . Plus if you remodel you've unleashed the tax devil and your taxes will go sky high . So not only do people not want to move any remodeling is done on the inside only .
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:37 PM   #55
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In California on our vacation property we pay 1725 a year. This is a 1534sq house in prime mountain vacation area built in 1981. The land is probably worth more than the house. Im one of those people who is glad that we have a freeze on property taxes
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:12 PM   #56
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Even the folks that live in Fla. know it's wrong, everyone except you.

Just admit it's wrong and that your taking advantage of a situation that benefits you.
"I'll bite." It's unfair, but I voted for it and I'll certainly take advantage of this situation that benefits me. I live in FL and have been in the same house for 14 years, so I will have a large benefit when I downsize for ER.

I had originally hoped that the amendment would be drafted to be more fair to nonresidents and businesses, but it ended up being mostly one-sided towards people like me. I didn't expect it to pass, so I guess there were many other homeowners that also wanted some tax relief and felt a "bird in hand is worth two in the bush".

I also voted for McCain in the primary, instead of Huckabee. Call me shallow, but my main reason was because Huckabee was pushing the "Fair" Tax proposal, which I view as unfair to those in ER who have already paid taxes on their savings and shouldn't be asked to pay again when they spend those savings.

The way I figure it, you need every edge you can get going into ER to make up for the haircuts that are surely coming in Medicare and Social Security when the majority vote to soak the people who were high earners during their working lives.

If you want fair, move to France, Sweden, or one of the other socialist countries and maybe you'll get it Otherwise, move to Florida, where the weather's pretty nice this time of year and the cost of living is still low in many parts of the state (and getting lower thanks to the housing crash).
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:40 PM   #57
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i look foward to watching news of civil war breaking out there as our early warning.
That is a rather gross exaggeration of "civil unrest", but whether you like it or not, anger will surface in state/county/city meetings and elections at some point. Those disproportionately paying the freight will not remain silent as the gap continues to widen. Floridians had better start working on what will replace this system longer term.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:45 PM   #58
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Yes you would need to pay the Fair Tax but you would otherwise have to pay the embedded taxes anyways. The beauty of the Fair Tax is that it eliminates the "non value added" cost of the IRS and all of the compliance lawyers. If you are not in that group, I do not see who it is a negative for.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:07 PM   #59
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Tiredofwork, what made you think it wouldn't pass. There was no alternative, not like you had a real choice. You either wanted a discount or didn't, so besides new comers and 1st time buyers why wouldn't you vote for it? I would say that 90% of the people have been here long enough to benefit from the amendment. As I said I see no reason not to vote for it if your in the 90% majority.

I don't blame anyone for voting for it if it was to your advantage. In June the original amendement had a 175K super exemption option that would have allowed anyone to choose SOH or the super exemption. In my case I would have taken the super exemption to take advantge of some tax relief. Some how it was taken off the ballot which essentially hurt new comers and 1st time buyers. Since new comers and 1st time buyers are a small minority there was no chance of this failing.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:33 PM   #60
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Interesting debate. I too am a Floridiot (TM) who voted in favor of Ammendment 1. I'm surprised that it only passed with a 65% majority (or whatever that figure was...) If nothing else, I hope that it will make my property a bit easier to sell -- to other Floridiots. As far as more Yankees moving here, I personally think we have too many already and the only people who seem to want more citizens are those connected with the now-ailing home building industry, real estate speculators, and the greedy local governmnets just drooling for the taxes of economic development. We are already "God's Waiting Room" down here; I say let NC or AZ take up some of the slack. GA is nice if you are a sober Baptist
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