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Old 11-10-2008, 03:06 PM   #41
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wait a second.... people still live in middle America?

And they have internet in their village huts??
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:08 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by . . . Yrs to Go View Post
The disdain for city folks is no less apparent in rural America.

Indeed! When I lived in Ohio and Missouri people there really went out of their way to tell me how much they disliked my home state of California. I've never met so many rude and resentful people as those in the midwest. After visiting Los Angeles, on the other hand, I came home thinking that I hadn't met so many happy, friendly people in a long time.

It's all in your own point of view.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:13 PM   #43
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Define "long-term"........maybe 2 years now? Give me some 5-YEAR reliability studies that confirm that and I will reconsider......

Any of us that own cars know that the first 3 years is a honey moon anyways with a new car, it is the NEXT 3 years that is the REAL issue.........
Suit yourself. I am inclined to trust CR on reliability data, as they have no incentives not to tell it straight.

My 1995 Escort is still on the road and has needed astonishingly little maintenance. I'd shop Ford and possibly GM vs. the other brands if I needed a car today.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:49 PM   #44
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wait a second.... people still live in middle America?

And they have internet in their village huts??
Too funny! I enjoy chatting with folks from all over the country, and I'm always amused by the misconceptions some have about rural America. I was in Las Vegas in February, 2005, chatting with a young man from L.A.

Him: "Where are you from?"
Me: "Spokane, Washington."
Him: "Did you hear about the tsunami?"
Me: (very concerned) "Another one?"
Him: "No, the big one around Christmas last year."
Me: "Umm....Yeah, we have high speed internet and CNN just like you":

Sheesh! I guess he thought we were still waiting for the Pony Express rider to bring us word of the tragedy in Asia!
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:56 PM   #45
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Maybe he really said, "Did you like the sashimi?"
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Old 11-10-2008, 04:50 PM   #46
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Maybe he really said, "Did you like the sashimi?"
Wonder if there is any good sashimi in the mid west
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Old 11-10-2008, 04:55 PM   #47
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Maybe he really said, "Did you like the sashimi?"
Considering this was in Vegas, I can come up with endless connotations...
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Old 11-10-2008, 04:59 PM   #48
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Considering this was in Vegas, I can come up with endless connotations...
There are a few all you can eat buffets just outside of Vegas.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:01 PM   #49
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i've read cost estimates where the pay for Honda/Toyota and UAW workers is about the same including all benefits.
Could you give some reference for that? Where did you read that pay for Honda/Toyota is the same as for UAW workers, including all benefits for active and retired employees. I don't think that's true. But I'm more than ready to stand corrected if you can mention some creditable source for that information......
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:13 PM   #50
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There's nothing wrong with LA or NYC,
what did I miss? did someone finally do something?
j/k...i've lived near both. not for the faint of heart.
but people on the east/west coasts seem to have this attitude that middle America is a boring wasteland.
not this NYer. i had the pleasure of managing a contract with a well known university in Ames, IA. i LOVED visiting there for the quarterly status meetings. i was treated so well by the local folks. i used to take old Rt 35, not I-35 just so i could stop in the little towns and buy a little something or other. i had so much fun. i may have been the only NYer they met, so i made sure to leave a very good impression.
...But I am really tired of people acting like Manhattan (or Los Angeles) is the center of civilization.
last time I checked that was either Athens or Alexandria. i watch History Channel a lot.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:16 PM   #51
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These are NOT minor problems. The only way they go away is if GM and others go brankrupt and force the union's hands.
There ya go........ I held both hourly (union) positions and management positions in unionized companies for a number of years. We used to say that the only thing that unions cannot negotiate for is the guarantee that the company will stay in business. It really is time to reset the game and start over in terms of unions and the automakers. This may require one or more of the "big three" to cease to exist, including the pension funds and retiree healthcare funds. Sad..... but when the pay and benefits you successfully negotiate for seem too good to be true, they just might be!

BTW, to those of you who consider it management's fault that the UAW succeeded in negotiating all that they did........ BS! When you are negotiating with a powerful union and you know that your competitors are ready and eager to clean your clock on market share if you take a prolonged strike, sometimes you do a little giving in despite knowing it will likely cost you later. You do this because you hope the union will "get" your competitors too and it will return to an even playing field.

BTW, for a little perspective, I spent the latter part of my career managing for a non-unionized company in the electronics/telecommunications industry. Why? The unionized metal working plant I was working at (USW - United Steel Workers) took a strike that lasted a little over one year before the company threw in the towel and shut down and I was laid off.

Getting tough with the UAW, USW or similar wasn't easy in the 60's, 70's and 80's when most of the so-called give-aways to the unions occured. Now the unions have to live with the consequences of having contributed to the weakening of their employers to the point their employers will likely not be able to continue paying them......
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:48 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by hankster View Post
Too funny! I enjoy chatting with folks from all over the country, and I'm always amused by the misconceptions some have about rural America. I was in Las Vegas in February, 2005, chatting with a young man from L.A.

Him: "Where are you from?"
Me: "Spokane, Washington."
Him: "Did you hear about the tsunami?"
Me: (very concerned) "Another one?"
Him: "No, the big one around Christmas last year."
Me: "Umm....Yeah, we have high speed internet and CNN just like you":

Sheesh! I guess he thought we were still waiting for the Pony Express rider to bring us word of the tragedy in Asia!
This is too funny! In 1992 I was on a plane coming back to the US after a year abroad. The woman sitting next to me was from NYC and asked me where I was headed. I told her I was going home to Oregon. She smiled widely and said, with a slightly quizzical look "How nice. How big a city is Oregon?"

Where do you even go from there?
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:55 PM   #53
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Could you give some reference for that? Where did you read that pay for Honda/Toyota is the same as for UAW workers, including all benefits for active and retired employees. I don't think that's true. But I'm more than ready to stand corrected if you can mention some creditable source for that information......
probably in the WSJ, and you have to pay for it. UAW make more, but all the benefits it's not that much. the problem with GM is the cost per car where employee costs are one part of the problem.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:56 PM   #54
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Totally off target, but I was at Discount Tire today. The woman in front of me, after what seemed forever, finally concluded her order for new tires. The clerk ask her for her keys. Her reply left everyone wondering.

"You mean I have to leave my car?"

His reply, 'Only if you want us to put the tires on", which she did.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:38 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Urchina View Post
This is too funny! In 1992 I was on a plane coming back to the US after a year abroad. The woman sitting next to me was from NYC and asked me where I was headed. I told her I was going home to Oregon. She smiled widely and said, with a slightly quizzical look "How nice. How big a city is Oregon?"

Where do you even go from there?
I overheard this one:

I'm from Manitoba.

Oh, where's that?

Ummmm - near Winnipeg........
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Old 11-10-2008, 08:15 PM   #56
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This may require one or more of the "big three" to cease to exist, including the pension funds and retiree healthcare funds.
This will be interesting to watch and will tell us a lot about our President Elect. Is he a problem solving pragmatist or a big union liberal?

The reality is that GM, Ford, & Chrysler need to restructure their costs to fit within their revenues. While a bankruptcy court would be particularly well suited to handle this, the recent election suggests Chapter 11 is not in the cards. But unfortunately for our well meaning politicians, government largess can only forestall the inevitable. To fix the underlying problem the cost structures will have to be rationalized . . . it will be interesting to watch Obama try to manage the competing interests. I have to admit, I'm not "hopeful" of the outcome.
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:58 PM   #57
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Is that a typo on Atlanta, lol? My place is in trouble otherwise!

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Originally Posted by soupcxan View Post
There's nothing wrong with LA or NYC, but people on the east/west coasts seem to have this attitude that middle America is a boring wasteland. And while they're certainly entitled to their opinion, I am less bothered by it knowing that my home value is only going down 1% while theirs is down +15% next year. Schadenfreude? Perhaps. But I am really tired of people acting like Manhattan (or Los Angeles) is the center of civilization.

Metro area 2009 median home price 2009 change
Dallas $155,645 -1.0%
Houston 147,549 -1.8
Atlanta 50,092 -2.5
Chicago 239,359 -5.3
Philadelphia 201,151 -9.8
Boston 295,918 -12.5
New York 393,210 -13.7
Washington 261,411 -17.1
Los Angeles 269,614 -17.2
Miami 214,551 -18.8

Forecast 2009: Year of the thaw - Nov. 4, 2008
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:08 PM   #58
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This is a really small minded thread. I'm just posting this to show my displeasure at one American (the OP) who doesn't seem to have a clue about other parts of the country. I won't be reading any followups so you can say what you want to but it's not worth anyone's time on this board to continue this discussion.
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:17 PM   #59
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... I live in the "Real America" as opposed to all y'all big city folks who live in... the "Fake America" I suppose.
Being an Arizonan, I wonder where I fit. Somewhere between the coastal folks and the fly-over, I guess. So, I have nothing to add, nor need to take side here.

However, about the "Real America", I read an interesting essay recently (in Time?) about this topic. The author pointed out that there are more Americans living in the "Fake America" now that it has become the "Real" one, whether you like it or not.
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:50 PM   #60
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I am a NYCer though not a real one either because I transplanted from somewhere else. NYC is where I have lived the longest in one stretch, so I tend to consider it home, but I have lived in CA, CO, MI, IL, PA, MD, MA, and Canada. I can tell you that where you're from can always be made into a problem, but those who do make it a problem tend to be venting frustration about their own lives or are talking about some perceived injustice that he/she assigns to a class of people. This stuff happens everywhere, but I would say that people on the coasts tend to spend less time obsessing about the nefarious people in Middle America.
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