For the anti-defined benefit people...

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort Here is a link from Vanguard on the sources of retirement income for wealthier retirees. Pension income only accounts for 20% on average: https://institutional.vanguard.com/i...ceDomain=false

Yes, but how anxious are they?

[fosterscik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort Here is a link from Vanguard on the sources of retirement income for wealthier retirees. Pension income only accounts for 20% on average: https://institutional.vanguard.com/i...ceDomain=false

Wow. Wealthier retirees defined as those "ages 60–79 with at least $100,000 in financial assets, whether in taxable, tax deferred, or other types of accounts"

I guess that makes me (and many others on this board) VERY wealthy. Strange that I don't feel that way...

[Big_Hitter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Yes, but how anxious are they?

[Walt34]

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Originally Posted by fosterscik Wow. Wealthier retirees defined as those "ages 60–79 with at least $100,000 in financial assets, whether in taxable, tax deferred, or other types of accounts" I guess that makes me (and many others on this board) VERY wealthy. Strange that I don't feel that way...

Same here. Where's my yacht, servants, and helicopter?

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_Hitter of course you can - it's just more difficult, especially if you are in the bottom quartile income wise

As it has always been. A person (or family) earning well below the median income will need to watch expenses very carefully in order to put away enough to stop working. OTOH, if they are happy with that lifestyle, their SS checks alone will go a long way toward matching what they were making during their working years. For low-income workers, SS is a tremendous deal.

There has never been a time when most families in the US were covered by employer DB plans.

[Big_Hitter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem There has never been a time when most families in the US were covered by employer DB plans.

hmmm...given that nearly half of all private sector employees were at one time covered by DB plans...

Fact March 1998 | EBRI

...I'm thinking that at one time over half of the US workers had a DB plan.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_Hitter hmmm...given that nearly half of all private sector employees were at one time covered by DB plans... Fact March 1998 | EBRI ...I'm thinking that at one time over half of the US workers had a DB plan.

But.... while many may have been covered by a DB plan, were they vested? Vesting periods were typically quite long before they made the change to 5 year cliff vesting in the 1980s. I recall an employer that I worked at from late 1980 to mid 1986 had a long vesting period so I got nothing for my over 5 years of service.

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_Hitter hmmm...given that nearly half of all private sector employees were at one time covered by DB plans... Fact March 1998 | EBRI ...I'm thinking that at one time over half of the US workers had a DB plan.

I guess it depends on what we mean by "covered".

[BLS53]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski +1 There was a reasons that employers drifted from DB to DC plans and I don't see those reasons changing. I think the reason for the provocative thread title is that this is the poster who claims that it is very difficult to retire without a defined benefit pension who many have tried to convince that is not true but he ain't listening. (emphasis added)

It's not difficult for the vast majority of members of this board. For society as a whole, it's difficult. Most people don't have the income to end up with a couple of million dollars to retire on. Without SS they wouldn't retire at all.

[pb4uski]

I disgree. There are plenty of people with median income that have the discipline to live within their means and save regularly for retirement. The proverbial pizza delivery guy that early retires. While I concede that many of us had higher than average incomes, nonetheless there are many examples of people with median incomes who had the discipline to be able to retire early.

I would concede that median income people don't typically have the discipline to pull it off, but that doesn't mean that it is not possible.

[clifp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_Hitter hmmm...given that nearly half of all private sector employees were at one time covered by DB plans... Fact March 1998 | EBRI ...I'm thinking that at one time over half of the US workers had a DB plan.

EBRI is basically lying. Currently 53% of Americans are employed by small business a number which has remained constant over the years. It is prohibitively expensive for a small business to set up a pension so they don't have one. More over as SamClem points out there is world of difference between working for organization that has a pension plan and actually having one. In theory everybody who has joined the military has defined benefit plan in practice only a small percentage last the 20 years to actually receive it.

Prior to Employment retirement security income act of 74, there were virtually no regulations about pension, 10 year vesting periods, in some cases if you left before age 65 you got no benefits, and the paternalistic companies (then as now were the exception not the rule) and lots of folks were fired right before vesting.

When the 1974 ERISA law was passed a committee studied retirement in they found that majority of Americans worked had no retirements plans (I forget the exact number but I think it was 65%)

Since I've joined the board, I've done a fair amount of research on the subject, and my best estimate is at no point in American history were more than 25-30% actually qualified to receive a pension

[HFWR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski I disagree. There are plenty of people with median income that have the discipline to live within their means and save regularly for retirement. The proverbial pizza delivery guy that early retires. While I concede that many of us had higher than average incomes, nonetheless there are many examples of people with median incomes who had the discipline to be able to retire early. I would concede that median income people don't typically have the discipline to pull it off, but that doesn't mean that it is not possible.

I would add that many above the median lack the discipline as well...

[Big_Hitter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp Since I've joined the board, I've done a fair amount of research on the subject, and my best estimate is at no point in American history were more than 25-30% actually qualified to receive a pension

I'll defer to your research then - yes there is a big difference between being "covered" and "effectively covered".

[pb4uski]

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Originally Posted by HFWR I would add that many above the median lack the discipline as well...

Fair point.

[audreyh1]

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Originally Posted by audreyh1 Currently 0.85%. But you can get up to 1.05% these days. These are FDIC insured high yield savings accounts.

Well - my high yield savings rate just went up to 0.9%. That's more like it!!!

[rvflyertoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski But.... while many may have been covered by a DB plan, were they vested? Vesting periods were typically quite long before they made the change to 5 year cliff vesting in the 1980s. I recall an employer that I worked at from late 1980 to mid 1986 had a long vesting period so I got nothing for my over 5 years of service.

Speaking of vesting - min of 20 years. US military service - NOTHING unless you complete 20 years of active or "good" reserve years....and they(active vs reserve) are totally different "retirements". It's all relative. Just sayin' blush: