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Old 06-05-2015, 09:51 AM   #21
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You might feel otherwise if you look at the friend/sellers resume, he knows full well what he's doing.

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Run quick! Dude works for the IRS!
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by gcgang View Post
My friend told me not to buy annuities.


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My Dad, who sold annuties, told me never waste my money on an annuity.

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Old 06-05-2015, 11:44 AM   #23
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Years ago I had a buddy who got caught up in the MarketAmerica thing. Then it was real estate. He was so pushy about both, despite repeated "no thanks" answers from me, that I finally had to tell him if he didn't stop, our friendship would have to stop.
It was a tough choice, but he persisted and I had to end the connection.

The emails you posted are full of "draw in" phrases to "force" participation.

My response to these emails would either be "no thanks, I'm all set on my financial position" or silence (no response).
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Old 06-05-2015, 12:17 PM   #24
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I would just ignore him or respond that you are happy with your investments and have no interest in IUL.

The loss of principal claim is a joke. Ask if if you put $100,000 in the contract on 1/1/2012 after the market performance for 2012, 2013 and 2014 and then you cashed it out, what would the surrender check be and what would the taxable gain be. I suspect that the 13% would be largely eaten up by expense charges, cost of insurance charges and surrender fees and your net return would be minimal if positive at all.

The zero floor is also a joke. Use the same scenario except that the index has zero return for each of the 3 years and I'll bet that the surrender check is less than $100,000.

He'll hem and haw about it being a long term investment but if he gives you the correct numbers you'll see that their claims that you can't lose money are a lie.
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Old 06-05-2015, 12:41 PM   #25
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If a friend of mine tried this stuff on me, they'd be an ex-friend.
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Old 06-05-2015, 01:15 PM   #26
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what annuities.... looks like universal life. What insurance company is he using? I had a local guy pushing what sounds like the same thing. The thing that looks the most interesting besides only getting the up side.... is a tax free income stream. The scary parts are what happens if you pull too much out and the policy terminates. With whole life this can happen if you can't keep up paying back the loans to keep the policy open. If it closes, does all the loans become taxable as well as interest paid by internal policy cash? Not sure about UL. An just how much does this suck your money into fees. I could not get details on these questions.

For me.. I would avoid.
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Old 06-05-2015, 01:35 PM   #27
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You might feel otherwise if you look at the friend/sellers resume, he knows full well what he's doing.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomrutkowski
I noticed he got his start working for the "Superior Cleaners". Same line of work just that now he concentrates on client's bank accounts!
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Old 06-05-2015, 01:45 PM   #28
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Incidentally, if you like the idea of this goofy strategy you can DIY without dealing with insurance companies:Life, Investments & Everything: Rolling Your Own
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Old 06-05-2015, 03:03 PM   #29
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This cashing in on friendships is so distasteful. Many here are probably aware of "First Command" (formerly "USPA/IRA") that specializes in signing up military members into high-cost retirement products. The business model frequently involved friends getting other friends to sign up (and there were many cases of inappropriate command influence, too, according to lawsuits and press reports). But, as scummy/shady as it was, it at least had two mitigating factors: 1) some of the salespeople really didn't realize how crummy and overpriced the products were and 2) They likely did convince may people to save for retirement who otherwise wouldn't have done it. So, even if a person pays a huge load and ER, if he ends a 20 year career witha few hundred K in investments that he wouldn't have had otherwise, that's not all bad. They are poorer than if they'd gone to an up-and-up outfit (fee-only advisor, read a book and get with VGD, TRP, Fido, etc), but better off than if they'd done nothing.

But guys like those in the OP aren't ignorant--they know the full value (?) of what they are pushing. And their marks are not people who would otherwise have nothing in savings--they are people who have successfully saved some money, and these guys are trying to help themselves to it.
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Old 06-05-2015, 06:48 PM   #30
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Quote:
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I would just ignore him or respond that you are happy with your investments and have no interest in IUL.



The loss of principal claim is a joke. Ask if if you put $100,000 in the contract on 1/1/2012 after the market performance for 2012, 2013 and 2014 and then you cashed it out, what would the surrender check be and what would the taxable gain be. I suspect that the 13% would be largely eaten up by expense charges, cost of insurance charges and surrender fees and your net return would be minimal if positive at all.



The zero floor is also a joke. Use the same scenario except that the index has zero return for each of the 3 years and I'll bet that the surrender check is less than $100,000.



He'll hem and haw about it being a long term investment but if he gives you the correct numbers you'll see that their claims that you can't lose money are a lie.

I would also be willing to bet what they verbally highlight, doesn't coincide with the buried fine print no one reads. Thus getting them off the hook of their "guarantees".


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Old 06-05-2015, 06:50 PM   #31
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You might feel otherwise if you look at the friend/sellers resume, he knows full well what he's doing.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomrutkowski
I imagine this guy is pretty good at what he does based on his resume. Ten jobs in less than 20 years, all dealing with sales (for the most part). I imagine he knows his stuff pretty well and will have a quick comeback for anything negative you can come up with.

I didn't really know people put their "sales pitch" on LinkedIn, but this might be the first sales guy I've looked at. Pretty impressive.

Meanwhile I'll just stick with my Vanguard 4 fund portfolio and not worry about all of that complicated stuff.
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Old 06-05-2015, 08:22 PM   #32
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Why or how would your friend know you are worth 7 figures? Are you flashy with your wealth? Do you tell folks how much you are worth? If so, keep that stuff on a need to know basis, and you won't have to deal with situations like this.




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Old 06-05-2015, 08:55 PM   #33
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He's a salesman.

Interesting - I clicked on the linkedin link that midpack posted... And I know people who know him. (We have a former employer and industry in common.) Who knows - I may have even been on conference calls with this guy.

Keep the friendship and the sales pitch separate. I like samclem's approach of the new email inquiring about his life/family/etc... then mention that you're not interested in his product line. Simple.
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:58 PM   #34
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When I get pitched products like these, the first question I always ask is "So if I buy this product from you, how much will you earn on the sale?"

It usually makes for very interesting conversation.


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Old 06-06-2015, 05:54 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by samclem View Post
This cashing in on friendships is so distasteful. Many here are probably aware of "First Command" (formerly "USPA/IRA") that specializes in signing up military members into high-cost retirement products. The business model frequently involved friends getting other friends to sign up (and there were many cases of inappropriate command influence, too, according to lawsuits and press reports). But, as scummy/shady as it was, it at least had two mitigating factors: 1) some of the salespeople really didn't realize how crummy and overpriced the products were and 2) They likely did convince may people to save for retirement who otherwise wouldn't have done it. So, even if a person pays a huge load and ER, if he ends a 20 year career witha few hundred K in investments that he wouldn't have had otherwise, that's not all bad. They are poorer than if they'd gone to an up-and-up outfit (fee-only advisor, read a book and get with VGD, TRP, Fido, etc), but better off than if they'd done nothing.
A classmate has been with FirstCommand since 1982. That's over 33 years of the notorious 50% front load plus annual fees (although their expense ratios are considerably cheaper today). They did a "free seminar" at USNA and he was just too busy to do his own investing.

He and his spouse were both on active duty for at least 20 years (and today they have an O-6 pension and an O-5 pension). At one point in 2002 he was the CO of a submarine while she was the XO of a shore command. One weekend while we were hanging out on the beach together (a very rare occurrence), his spouse asked me if something was wrong with the stock market. She said they'd been making their usual paycheck deductions to USPA-IRA but their account balances weren't going up anymore. I was the first person to explain to her what the NASDAQ is and what had happened.

But as far as I know they're still with FirstCommand. Investing is scary stuff and they'd rather do other things than keep track of their finances.
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Old 06-06-2015, 06:57 PM   #36
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When I get pitched products like these, the first question I always ask is "So if I buy this product from you, how much will you earn on the sale?"

It usually makes for very interesting conversation. ...
Personally, I would not go that route. For one thing, everyone is looking to make a profit when they provide a service, nothing wrong with that. The bottom line is - will the client benefit (the baker, brewer, etc)?

The second thing is, these are professional salespeople. They will have an answer for you.

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Old 06-06-2015, 07:56 PM   #37
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Quote:
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When I get pitched products like these, the first question I always ask is "So if I buy this product from you, how much will you earn on the sale?"

It usually makes for very interesting conversation.


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Don't go there, asking about how he gets paid, unless you are up for listening to a song and dance.

I knew a guy who had a "financial planning" firm who would answer this question, "you don't have to pay me anything", and then would digress into obfuscating things with talk about his annuities and mutual funds that would make your head hurt.

The guy at one point was "disciplined" by some regulator for collecting up front loads when he was putting people into fee based platforms. Most of the consequences were born by his firm for lack of supervision, even tho this guy was the manager of the local office. He simply left his firm and went to another, and never seemed to miss a beat.

Just a smaller scale version of Jordan Belcort, the Wolf of Wall Street.



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Old 06-06-2015, 09:53 PM   #38
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If you want to be blunt, and I have been on occasion, what's wrong with "we're the same age, I have a lot more than you, who should be advising who?"?
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:26 PM   #39
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Screw this guy! He is trying to screw you.

The lowest kind of scum, canvasses his old friends. I have sold things I would never have bought, but not to my friends or family.

Actually, no one will ever buy anything valuable unless he goes out and finds it. If it is for sale in an institutionalized market, and commissioned salesmen are the vector, it sucks. Always. Period.

Ha
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Old 06-07-2015, 12:16 AM   #40
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I stole an idea from Guy Spier's book.

It goes like this: I know people who sell stuff are very good, knowledgable and persuasive and know more than I do. So... In order to ensure I make good decisions I can't buy anything that someone is selling. So.. If they want to talk to me about it... That's fine... But then I can't buy it. If they want me to buy it... They can't talk to me about it but are welcome to send me all the information and I can make an informed decision when I'm not in a hot state.

If they persist I just say "ok... Just know now I can't buy it 100%... Nothing personal... It's just a policy."

It works well .

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