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Old 06-07-2015, 08:03 AM   #41
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Screw this guy! He is trying to screw you.

The lowest kind of scum, canvasses his old friends. I have sold things I would never have bought, but not to my friends or family.

Actually, no one will ever buy anything valuable unless he goes out and finds it. If it is for sale in an institutionalized market, and commissioned salesmen are the vector, it sucks. Always. Period.

Ha
While I detest those that sell financial products at a significant markup to the unsuspecting victim with little value added (and oftentimes, massive NEGATIVE value added to the process), this, in principle, is no different than a Mary Kay "sales rep" (or insert your other favorite MLM company) or a real estate agent or insurance agent hitting up their friends and family for business leads. Or your friend who started up a lawn car business.

Are the Mary Kay products over-priced? To some - while others swear by it. Is State Farm higher than Allstate or Amica? Sometimes they're lower, sometimes they're higher. Is a real estate agent really THAT valuable, for the 6% commission you end up paying? Sometimes they truly aren't (while a few are).

Are the financially poor products pedaled by the likes of this ilk bad compared to Vanguard - or even 'lesser' loaded families like maybe American Funds? Obviously.

But are they any worse than a host of other financial firms that make their living by selling the financial version of a Chevy investment at the price of a Cadillac? Or a credit card extending credit to financial rubes, who end up paying 15%+ interest just because they're too damn lazy to open their eyes and see that making that "just $50" monthly payment results in paying more than double for a product? As some have pointed out, perhaps these financial illiterates would never have saved, and at least have some small meager savings amounts.

If Vanguard paid an army of financial reps to go door-to-door and educate people on the benefits of products from Vanguard, then they would probably have some success at it - but remember that many people simply don't WANT to know anything related to "that investment stuff", and are happy having a 'professional' take care of them. They view it probably the same as relying on a medical professional to take care of their health, or a mechanic taking care of their car - why should they have to bother themselves to learn it when there is already an investment professional out there who can do all of that for them?

Of course, having said that, if a friend or acquaintance of mine tried to sell me, I'd simply tell them that I know the real total costs associated with investments, and will never purchase the products they are selling. If they attempt to continue despite my repeated "no" answers, then I would really tell 'em off.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:57 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by MooreBonds View Post
While I detest those that sell financial products at a significant markup to the unsuspecting victim with little value added (and oftentimes, massive NEGATIVE value added to the process), this, in principle, is no different than a Mary Kay "sales rep" (or insert your other favorite MLM company) or a real estate agent or insurance agent hitting up their friends and family for business leads. Or your friend who started up a lawn car business.
You may well be right. I just prefer not to be solicited by friends or family. Especially with family, it seems like an attempt to make it difficult to say no. In fact, it is an attempt to make it difficult to say no. Real estate may or may not be different, since lower cost similar services are not easy to find in many markets. And every house is different, at least used houses will be different in upkeep. Even here companies like Redfin are making transactions cheaper. Also, the 6% is not written in stone. In various environments an agent will often adjust downward if you push.

Ha
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:08 AM   #43
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We never do business with friends or relatives.


Give that bum the brush off. You do not need friends who take advantage of you.
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:21 AM   #44
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When DW and I were first married two of my four BILs were life insurance agents and pitched me. I just made it clear that I was more of a BTID guy and gently rebuffed any advances. They soon learned that it was a lost cause and never brought it up again.

I doubt that I would be retired today had I bought their invest in whole life pitch.... and IUL is worse.
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Old 06-07-2015, 12:39 PM   #45
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I don't mind doing business with friends and relatives *IF* it is a truly good value. I do not have a problem saying no, and I'm good enough in math to do battle against any claims of improvements over my current situation 9amazing how many sales folks cannot do not math beyond what the company provides them).

The biggest issue I have found is that folks feel you should be willing to pay much more for a product just because a relative is pushing it. Years ago a BIL really was after me to sell me a life insurance/annuity product, and I kept rebuffing him because not only did I not like the product but even if I did it was twice as much as the low cost term insurance we had. Eventually BIL became ex-BIL. DW and SIL (her sister) recently had a conversation not too long ago where SIL put some of the blame for their marriage falling apart on us, because we wouldn't "help them out" by doing business with him. DW kept pointing out how we didn't need it in the first place, how expensive the product was, how I was trying to point that out to ex-BIL etc., but SIL's main reply was "that shouldn't matter, you do those things for family".
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Old 06-08-2015, 06:19 AM   #46
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For me, this would be a former friend who has become a business acquaintance that I don't actually do any business with. Can still be cordial and have a friendly conversation but could also be clear that I have no intention of investing in annuities.
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Old 06-08-2015, 06:29 AM   #47
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Life insurance was always a very inefficient way to invest your savings. These guys are scary they know well that there products are expensive but there's that commission. Guess who funds that commission you know...

dont walk away...Run!


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Old 06-08-2015, 09:10 AM   #48
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When I first started working in the computer industry we had a saying.

'Where there is mystery there is margin"

I have always believed that this is the motto of the insurance business. I believe in term life. I strongly suspect that all those other complicated products that they push result in low return to the policy holder and high margins for the insurance company.

Why not simply by insurance and investments as two separate products
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Old 06-08-2015, 09:42 AM   #49
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Why or how would your friend know you are worth 7 figures? Are you flashy with your wealth? Do you tell folks how much you are worth? If so, keep that stuff on a need to know basis, and you won't have to deal with situations like this.




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Well, I don't know if he knows I"m worth that much, but back when he was a salesman for a MegaCorp, the subject of finances came up a few times and we talked stocks, mutual funds, etc. so of course he knows I have ample funds to invest. But back then, he was an index fund guy which I appreciated and always knew that "low cost" was the way to win. Obviously now that he has become an annuity huckster, all that is forgotten.

By the way I recall him telling me he was "all out" of the market in 2011. And I'm glad I didn't follow his advice then!!
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Old 06-08-2015, 02:42 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by jollystomper View Post
I don't mind doing business with friends and relatives *IF* it is a truly good value. I do not have a problem saying no, and I'm good enough in math to do battle against any claims of improvements over my current situation 9amazing how many sales folks cannot do not math beyond what the company provides them).

The biggest issue I have found is that folks feel you should be willing to pay much more for a product just because a relative is pushing it. Years ago a BIL really was after me to sell me a life insurance/annuity product, and I kept rebuffing him because not only did I not like the product but even if I did it was twice as much as the low cost term insurance we had. Eventually BIL became ex-BIL. DW and SIL (her sister) recently had a conversation not too long ago where SIL put some of the blame for their marriage falling apart on us, because we wouldn't "help them out" by doing business with him. DW kept pointing out how we didn't need it in the first place, how expensive the product was, how I was trying to point that out to ex-BIL etc., but SIL's main reply was "that shouldn't matter, you do those things for family".
Wow, placing blame for her failed marriage because you didn't buy an overpriced product that you didn't need. Most likely they still would have ended up divorced but you'd still have to make those monthly payments.

So she thinks you should "do those things for family"? How about not targeting your family for stuff like that!
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Old 06-08-2015, 03:38 PM   #51
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We never do business with friends or relatives.


Give that bum the brush off. You do not need friends who take advantage of you.
+2, squared.
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Old 06-09-2015, 11:39 AM   #52
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Here is his latest pitch to me after telling him I'm fine with what I got. Its got all the classic high pressure sales points. Gee, I could make 12% risk free!! Wheeeee


I could argue that I made a bunch too, but I'll never put another dime on wall street. I dumped all of my severance from Motorola plus all the commissions that were due upon my termination. Lows like that are easy to identify, as are the highs like right now. It may go higher, may. As the market came back, that segment of the portfolio made a huge contribution to replacing paper losses from the crash.

Nowadays I have any number of secured investments that pay 12%+ year in and year out with very little risk and no correlation to wall street or even to the general real estate segment.

I think a blind chimp with a dart and the stock tables would have done well the last 5 years. A rising sea floats all boats.




Anybody here know where or what can pay 12% risk free Of course not. I think he is ridiculous, but I have to admit he has a heck of a nice yacht. . .
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Old 06-09-2015, 11:49 AM   #53
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Some friendships are destined to end, like this one. He ended it when he changed your status from "friend" to "mark."
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:10 PM   #54
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Here is his latest pitch to me after telling him I'm fine with what I got. Its got all the classic high pressure sales points. Gee, I could make 12% risk free!! Wheeeee


I could argue that I made a bunch too, but I'll never put another dime on wall street. I dumped all of my severance from Motorola plus all the commissions that were due upon my termination. Lows like that are easy to identify, as are the highs like right now. It may go higher, may. As the market came back, that segment of the portfolio made a huge contribution to replacing paper losses from the crash.

Nowadays I have any number of secured investments that pay 12%+ year in and year out with very little risk and no correlation to wall street or even to the general real estate segment.

I think a blind chimp with a dart and the stock tables would have done well the last 5 years. A rising sea floats all boats.




Anybody here know where or what can pay 12% risk free Of course not. I think he is ridiculous, but I have to admit he has a heck of a nice yacht. . .
As I observed earlier, this dude is all sales creature. No matter what objections you raise, he has a schpiel to batter them down and try to close the sale. The only way to end it is to stop engaging with him.

I think Greek bonds pay at least 12%. Want some?
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:56 PM   #55
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I told him that if he knew where these 12% risk free devices were, why doesn't he just borrow money at 6% and invest in them and get a guaranteed 6%. Would save him the bother of trying to sell them to other folks.
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Old 06-09-2015, 01:47 PM   #56
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I told him that if he knew where these 12% risk free devices were, why doesn't he just borrow money at 6% and invest in them and get a guaranteed 6%. Would save him the bother of trying to sell them to other folks.

I like this! I was going to suggest asking him to provide a guarantee, back by his personal assets, of the returns being 12% for life. I like your idea better!
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