Fuel Prices - Domestic Car Manufacturers

[chinaco]

Apparently large vehicle sales are down around 40%... overall sales are not down that much, but enough to hurt the domestic car manufacturers.

GM to close 4 plants, focus on small cars: Financial News - Yahoo! Finance

It appears that GM is shutting down some plants and laying off up to 10,000 workers. Mainly plants that make Trucks, SUVs, MiniVans... large vehicles.

Domestic manufacturers once again were short-sighted. Perhaps they can turn it around. I suspect that many of the smaller vehicles that GM produces will be in another country and imported.

The problem I have with short-sighted management in that industry is that American jobs are lost because of management incompetence and lack of vision.

Of course most everyone that is looking for a car will be interested in fuel efficiency. GM's hybrid technology seems to be behind Toyota.

People who own existing gas hogs are finding that they are upside-down on loans for vehicles... used trucks and suvs are worth much less. I have heard the dealers are not too interested in taking used gas hogs as trade-ins.

[FinanceDude]

Toyota and Honda built their sales levels on fuel efficient cars. When gas was cheap, domestic carmakers could compete, but the higher the gas goes, the more folks who go toward a smaller car.

Domestic carmakers are behind the apeball, but I am sure they will catch up..........

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinaco The problem I have with short-sighted management in that industry is that American jobs are lost because of management incompetence and lack of vision.

Half of the GM plants that are closing are located outside the US in Canada and Mexico.

So the lost American jobs isn't quite as bad as one would think by glancing at the headlines.

And think of all the new jobs created by "foreign" car companies opening up factories in the US. I put foreign in quotes because what does that even mean these days? I know I own a lot of Honda, Toyota, etc. through my Pacific Index fund at vanguard. Last I checked they were heavily weighted in the top 10 holdings.

[Texas Proud]

Didn't we have this same issue back in the 70s and 80s

And the imports were kicking the domestics butts.... and we put in import limits and all other kind of 'feel good' but cost a lot legislation that did not work....

So, fast forward a couple of decades... and the domestics are doing the same thing.... trying to make a big buck with the truck and SUVs and such, which BTW they were... but did not see the future coming and produced some major crap on their low end cars..

Now they get to reap their decisions....

as far as the workers... maybe they should have applied to and gotten a job with Honda or Toyota... there are many domestic plants for them to work.

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud as far as the workers... maybe they should have applied to and gotten a job with Honda or Toyota... there are many domestic plants for them to work.

They don't get the cushy benefts packages at Honda or Toyota or Nissan, so unless forced to, they're not going to move. The UAW tried FIVE times to organize a union at a Subaru plant, and it went nowhere.

From what I know, the import carmakers pay very well, but they don't offer lifetime medical and huge pensions like the domestic plants do..........

[Free To Canoe]

I heard that they are adding a third shift at Lordstown, OH plant.
They make the Chev Cobalt there and they are planning to introduce the next generation compact that gets much better gas mileage.

[W2R]

If domestic manufacturers can produce a car with the gas mileage and reliability of a Camry, for less money, that was equally safe, then I would at least take it for a test drive.

I'm not holding my breath, though!

I might buy one of those gas-guzzlers (used SUV's or huge trucks) when I ER if they are still cheap. I don't drive much anyway.

[DAYDREAMER]

Honda is dominating car manufacturing because of they're forward thinking, and are leading the way in Outboards (killed OMC and killing Mercury), small motors (what Briggs and Straton used to dominate), generators, motorcycles, etc. It takes good management to forcast future trends and keep the vision. Too bad short sighted American management only look at todays stock price to make decisions.

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free To Canoe I heard that they are adding a third shift at Lordstown, OH plant. They make the Chev Cobalt there and they are planning to introduce the next generation compact that gets much better gas mileage.

They could pick up substantial fuel economy by FINALLY adding a 5 speed auto to their small car lines. Up to a several years ago, they were using 3-speed autos with lock-up torque converters and outdated 4 speeds geared wrong, etc...........

I had a 96 Pontiac Sunbird as a demo once. Automatic, 4cyl, I NEVER got over 23 mpg..........

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinanceDude They could pick up substantial fuel economy by FINALLY adding a 5 speed auto to their small car lines. Up to a several years ago, they were using 3-speed autos with lock-up torque converters and outdated 4 speeds geared wrong, etc........... I had a 96 Pontiac Sunbird as a demo once. Automatic, 4cyl, I NEVER got over 23 mpg..........

Man you are right... get some more GEARS in the cars... then you could have a slightly smaller engine but still have good acceleration...

I was surprised to see that the smaller cars only have the 4 speeds... but you can get a Lexus with an 8 speed... (IIRC)...

[Goonie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO .....I put foreign in quotes because what does that even mean these days?

You've got that right! My last car was a 'foreign' job.....a Mitsubishi.....built in Normal, IL, less than an hour drive from my home. I traded it in on a good ol' 'American' Chevy.......built in Mexico! What's the world coming to....

[Zathras]

Lack of vision is what is doing them in.
They are playing catch up now and have some interesting ideas on the drawing board. I hope we see some/all of them make it to market.
I was impressed with Wagoner's speech. He really seemed, for the most part, to 'get it'.
However, with no plans for an all electric car mentioned, I don't think I will be driving a GM vehicle anytime soon.

[dex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zathras Lack of vision is what is doing them in.

Focus on quarterly financial reporting and the way compensation is structured is part of the problem.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zathras However, with no plans for an all electric car mentioned, I don't think I will be driving a GM vehicle anytime soon.

Isn't the Volt essentially an electric car with a very small IC engine that serves only as a range extender? If you don't travel long distances, the IC engine might never run. Conceptually it sounds pretty smart as I understand it...

[ziggy29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack Isn't the Volt essentially an electric car with a very small IC engine that serves only as a range extender? If you don't travel long distances, the IC engine might never run. Conceptually it sounds pretty smart as I understand it...

The Volt is a different type of hybrid in that the gas "engine" can't power the vehicle directly. As I understand it, the gas engine functions strictly as a generator, producing the electricity to keep the electric drivetrain running.

[ERD50]

I'm going to have to look into those websites on making your own diesel fuel from restaurant grease. If I could get a great deal on an SUV diesel that someone is upside-down on, and then make my fuel for next to nothing....

Probably not worth the effort for the miles I drive. It's not a solution for wide spread use (not enough waste oil around), but for an individual, it could work.

-ERD50

[Marquette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 I'm going to have to look into those websites on making your own diesel fuel from restaurant grease.

Start here... it's a great site

Instructables - biodiesel - DIY & How To

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marquette Start here... it's a great site Instructables - biodiesel - DIY & How To

Thanks. Unfortunately, looks like it takes work

A few other phrases did not sound appealing to me:

Quote:

Methoxide, the substance produced when you mix your catalyst with the methanol, is an extremely toxic nerve agent. It can do some serious bodily damage.

Maybe if it was just a 'toxic nerve agent', but I draw the line at 'extremely toxic nerve agent'.

Quote:

Heat the oil to 130 degrees F.

Hmmm, energy to heat it, heat + 'extremely toxic nerve agent' + methanol...

Quote:

Methanol is at about $5 a gallon. This still ends up being cheaper than regular diesel, since you add 20% methanol for the amount of WVO you use.

So it'll still cost a minimum of $1 gallon plus heating, and collecting, exposing myself to 'extremely toxic nerve agent' etc, etc, etc.

Looks like I'll hold out for the next generation of electrics.

Now, I did read about a guy that set up a still, and his feedstock was the waste drinks from a local bar! Probably 5-10% ethanol on average between mixed drinks, beer, and melted ice...

-ERD50

[Marquette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 Thanks. Unfortunately, looks like it takes work

If you live in a reasonably temperate clime then you could also look at extending a diesel engine to also run straight vegetable oil (SVO). The trick is filtering it (engines don't like burnt french fry chunks) and, potentially, keeping it warm if it's cold enough to solidify. As I understand it, a diesel engine that's been converted to run on SVO will still handle diesel fuel just fine.

Also, while this is apocryphal, I've read of a permaculturist that extracts oil from hazelnuts and combines that with hard apple cider (courtesy of his orchard). The apple cider performs the role of the methoxide in separating the fuel without causing anything more than a hangover. It's on my list of things to research to see if there's any truth at all to the story. There was no mention of running on water in that story so it's a bit promising.

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marquette Also, while this is apocryphal, I've read of a permaculturist that extracts oil from hazelnuts and combines that with hard apple cider (courtesy of his orchard). The apple cider performs the role of the methoxide in separating the fuel without causing anything more than a hangover. It's on my list of things to research to see if there's any truth at all to the story. There was no mention of running on water in that story so it's a bit promising.

Ain't no chemist, but I have fermented a wide variety of things and I am an investor in the methanol industry. Smells like BS to me. My understanding is that you really need methanol to make biodiesel, and in all the things I have fermented (and believe me, there were times when there was no money and alcohol gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no alcohol, if you get my drift) I have never ended up with any detectable amounts of methanol. After all, I haven't gone blind yet.