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Old 04-27-2011, 09:45 AM   #241
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'Shorter' is actually seconds to days (at most).
CO2 is decades. Your statement is really a stretch.

You second point regarding additional methane production is a good issue. However, I don't think it balances the lower co2 from burning Nat gas vs oil.
And methane is decades, too.
All this presumes that we understand the feedback loops and interdependencies, and that any resultant (possible) change is a bad thing. ( . . talk about a stretch!)
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Old 04-27-2011, 01:08 PM   #242
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And methane is decades, too.
All this presumes that we understand the feedback loops and interdependencies, and that any resultant (possible) change is a bad thing. ( . . talk about a stretch!)
Bold mine.
You have me at a bit of a loss. I have never argued that "any resultant (possible) change is a bad thing".
I also have never heard anyone argue that any change in the climate is a bad thing. Where did you get the idea that anyone holds this position?

And yes, methane is many years to decades as well. Which is why I compliment you on your second point. Few people consider that aspect.
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Old 04-27-2011, 01:27 PM   #243
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I also have never heard anyone argue that any change in the climate is a bad thing. Where did you get the idea that anyone holds this position?
I'm sure we both have a common understanding of events and are somehow talking past each other. I have heard many people (A. Gore most notably) who maintain that a particular change in climate (warming) is a "bad thing." 30 years ago, when some scientists postulated that the earth was cooling, that was also cited by some as a "bad thing."
Or, to put it another way, I've seen no reporting in the popular press of UN reports concerning changes in climate that would be a "good thing." Some might conclude that, remarkably, the climate we happen to have today is the best one possible. Hmmm.
The whole reason climate change is a widely discussed issue is due to the claimed deleterious effects of such change. Otherwise, a small change in the global temps would just be an interesting observation that fails to catch the attention of the public and policymakers. It would be like the ongoing gradually shift in magnetic poles--interesting, but generally insignificant (well, until . . .)
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Old 04-27-2011, 02:24 PM   #244
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I'm sure we both have a common understanding of events and are somehow talking past each other. I have heard many people (A. Gore most notably) who maintain that a particular change in climate (warming) is a "bad thing." 30 years ago, when some scientists postulated that the earth was cooling, that was also cited by some as a "bad thing."
Or, to put it another way, I've seen no reporting in the popular press of UN reports concerning changes in climate that would be a "good thing." Some might conclude that, remarkably, the climate we happen to have today is the best one possible. Hmmm.
The whole reason climate change is a widely discussed issue is due to the claimed deleterious effects of such change. Otherwise, a small change in the global temps would just be an interesting observation that fails to catch the attention of the public and policymakers. It would be like the ongoing gradually shift in magnetic poles--interesting, but generally insignificant (well, until . . .)


Well, I will say that they DO say why it is a bad thing.... that there will be ice melting and the oceans will rise and a lot of people living along the coasts at various places will be living in the ocean... etc. etc. etc.... I also remembe reading that we would have more violent storms (hurricane, tornado etc.) that kill more people... and that growing food will be harder...

If all it was was an interesting thing.... then I am sure they would ignore it...
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Old 04-27-2011, 02:43 PM   #245
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I don't believe anyone argued that our military is solely used to protect oil interests.
Just that some of our military expenditures (and probably foreign aid) are to protect our interest in oil safe.
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As it should be. IMHO.
Which leads me to the conclusion that we should pay for that fraction of our military with a tax on oil, because the people who use the oil the most get the most benefit.

My suggestion was $1 per gallon of oil, which is $300 billion per year. That's way less than our total military spending.
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Old 04-27-2011, 03:10 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by samclem View Post
I'm sure we both have a common understanding of events and are somehow talking past each other. I have heard many people (A. Gore most notably) who maintain that a particular change in climate (warming) is a "bad thing." 30 years ago, when some scientists postulated that the earth was cooling, that was also cited by some as a "bad thing."
Or, to put it another way, I've seen no reporting in the popular press of UN reports concerning changes in climate that would be a "good thing." Some might conclude that, remarkably, the climate we happen to have today is the best one possible. Hmmm.
The whole reason climate change is a widely discussed issue is due to the claimed deleterious effects of such change. Otherwise, a small change in the global temps would just be an interesting observation that fails to catch the attention of the public and policymakers. It would be like the ongoing gradually shift in magnetic poles--interesting, but generally insignificant (well, until . . .)
Al Gore is part of the problem, because he's such a polarizing figure. My take on it is that the results of global warming/climate change are happening faster than the models predicted, and may cause, at some point, a non-linear response in the system. Gradual warming would likely be harmful, but manageable. But a sudden, step-function change could be much less manageable.

Granted, lots of pseudo-science on this subject, but the general trend of both temperature and CO2 looks pretty incontrovertible.
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Old 04-29-2011, 12:23 PM   #247
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Anyone else notice that the last time they did the "pump and dump' on oil (2007?) that when gas was $4 a gallon, crude was all the way up to $150 a barrel ? Gas is now $4 a gal, and crude is only $110 approximately. Hmmmm....
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Old 04-29-2011, 01:04 PM   #248
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