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Old 04-19-2011, 02:22 PM   #141
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Purchased gas for the lawn tractor yesterday. I think I'll trade it in for a flock of sheep ...

At least it will give my sheepdogs some exercise...
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:42 AM   #142
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So, while surfing I saw the add for the future plug-in Prius

2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid

The interesting thing which makes this practical is the charge times. They claim said it can quick charge using a regular 120V household outlet in 3 hours. If using a 240V outlet, in only 1.5 hours. Plus, since it's not an all EV, it's not charge or get stranded.
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:02 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
So, while surfing I saw the add for the future plug-in Prius

2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid

The interesting thing which makes this practical is the charge times. They claim said it can quick charge using a regular 120V household outlet in 3 hours. If using a 240V outlet, in only 1.5 hours. Plus, since it's not an all EV, it's not charge or get stranded.
Why is this interesting?

I had to dig a little, but the Plug in Prius only gets 13 miles on that charge, before switching to the gas engine (funny how the charge time is right up front, but the range isn't). It's about the same ratio of charge time for miles driven as the Chevy Volt ( 8 hours on regular 120V, and ~ 35 miles on EV mode), which also switches to gasoline power. And the Tesla has about the same ratio - 48 hours for 221 miles. Leaf is about the same (they say 5 miles per hour of charging).

So any of these cars would go 13 miles on a 3 hour charge. They all work with the same principles and same basic efficiencies. Nothing new there.

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Old 04-22-2011, 04:07 PM   #144
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While I agree about the times, the efficiencies do vary.

The Volt gets just over 3 miles/Kwh
The Tesla gets about 4 miles/Kwh
Not sure about the Leaf
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:51 PM   #145
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While I agree about the times, the efficiencies do vary.

The Volt gets just over 3 miles/Kwh
The Tesla gets about 4 miles/Kwh
Not sure about the Leaf
I guess I need to ask you to show your work Sure, they vary, but not by much.

There are various numbers published for range and charge times, it depends upon conditions, but from wiki I found:

The VOLT: The EPA found in tests using varying driving conditions and climate controls, the all-electric range averaged 35 miles....

According to General Motors a full charge takes approximately eight hours from a standard North American 120 V, 15 A household outlet...


The Prius Plug-in: The Prius plug-in total all-electric range is 13 mi... and 3 hour charge time.

For the LEAF, I only found a vague reference to ~ 5 miles per hour of charge, but I doubt they have any magic mojo that the others do not, so I'll assume the conditions are not exact.

Tesla is 221 Miles on a 48 Hour charge per wiki.


VOLT: 35/8 = 4.375 Miles/HC
Prius PI: 13/3 = 4.333 Miles/HC
Tesla: 221/48 = 4.604 Miles/HC

I'd bet the Tesla has a better weight ratio being a two seater and better aerodynamics that would account for a 6% better ratio.

I'd assume they are all drawing the same max rated current from that plug, so efficiencies ought to match.

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Old 04-22-2011, 05:45 PM   #146
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I guess I need to ask you to show your work Sure, they vary, but not by much.
Certainly!
The Volt's electricity usage is 36kwh/100 miles, or .36kwh/mile which is just over 1kwh/3 miles. This is per the EPA's site at Fuel Economy (Mobile).

The data for the Tesla is not immediately available at the same site?
However, Wiki seems to be a good second with references.
According to the most recent reference at Tesla Roadster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (which is August 2008), the EPA range is 244 miles with an efficiency of 28 kwh/100 miles. Just under 1kwh/4 miles.

Using their base measuring stick of kwh/100 miles, gives about a 22% improvement going from the Volt to the Tesla.
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:06 PM   #147
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The extra direct cost for fuel is only part of the problem... it is the indirect inflation related to everything else that creates a larger problem.

Everything we purchase utilizes crude oil related products either directly for manufacture, for transportation, or both.

However, at a certain level... substitutes will begin to be competitive in certain applications.


I know quite a number of people that rushed out and bought a cheap (huge) truck or suv during the financial crisis when the manufacturers were marking them down... I suppose the wisdom of that decision is being reconsidered!
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:11 PM   #148
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Certainly!

Using their base measuring stick of kwh/100 miles, gives about a 22% improvement going from the Volt to the Tesla.
I think we need to know more about how these numbers are derived. Or maybe the charge numbers are really round figures? Maybe the charge current tapers off at some point, below 12A (I doubt it, with a 120V source, the current is a small fraction of C)?

Those kw/100 mile figures just don't match the charge time and mile numbers we have. There's some fudge or rounding, or different conditions somewhere.

OTOH, it doesn't matter. Assuming the charge time (if accurate) represents 'full on' for the majority of the charge cycle, then time is energy (and $), and miles per charge time is all that matters to the owner.

Of course, considering the cost of an EV, 10~20% in efficiency in use of that electric current is pretty much a non-issue!

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Old 04-22-2011, 06:14 PM   #149
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Everything we purchase utilizes crude oil related products either directly for manufacture, for transportation, or both.
And the biggest source of electricity purchased utilizes coal, which in many ways is 'dirtier' than oil. Not sure that's a 'win'.

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Old 04-22-2011, 06:28 PM   #150
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Nuclear.....

So far, wind / solar etc power is more than 10x as much $$$ to produce as Nuke. Coal, oil, gas is too dirty and $$$
Every one wants it, but know one wants to pay 10x as much for it.
Quite the situation........

BTW Regular is $4.25 where I live.
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:31 PM   #151
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One other thing......
What happened to the 45-50 mpg diesel VW's from the late 70's?
You would think we could do better today.
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:45 PM   #152
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Nuclear.....

So far, wind / solar etc power is more than 10x as much $$$ to produce as Nuke. Coal, oil, gas is too dirty and $$$
Every one wants it, but know one wants to pay 10x as much for it.
Quite the situation........

BTW Regular is $4.25 where I live.
I've heard that no insurance company will insure against a nuclear power plant disaster, thus the government has to provide that guarantee, essentially for free. Looking at Japans current twelve mile exclusion zone, I have to wonder what the financial implications of that are.
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Old 04-24-2011, 06:28 AM   #153
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$6+/gal this summer?? Perfect storm scenario.

Could gas prices hit $6 a gallon?- MSN Money
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Old 04-24-2011, 06:59 AM   #154
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I am still working and been paying 4.35 and at this price I spent 100 dollars per week.
The cost of going just to work is ~ 5,000 at this current level. If gas was to hit the magic 6.00, it will be just cheaper to stay home and quit working. The other hit on the pay check was the 67% increase in state income taxes and that increased took my pay check to 2007 levels.
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Old 04-24-2011, 07:02 AM   #155
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And the biggest source of electricity purchased utilizes coal, which in many ways is 'dirtier' than oil. Not sure that's a 'win'.

-ERD50

Coal gasification is getting another look to produce a variety of energy solutions.

If the cost of certain types of conventional fuel (raw energy sources) continue to increase and maintain higher levels... this will be a viable alternative.

Most consider it to be a temporary solution till there is some sort of hydrogen fuel or fuel cell breakthrough that makes it viable.

The US has a lot of coal... as does China. Converted Coal might serve as an alternative fuel that caps crude inflation (demand vs supply).... substitutes!

However... that would probably just mean there is availability... but at higher prices!
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Old 04-24-2011, 07:42 AM   #156
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Just filled up with 54 gallons of regular. The pump kept shutting off at $75 so I needed to swipe the credit card three times. Served as a helpful reminder of how much money I was spending.
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Old 04-24-2011, 07:51 AM   #157
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Nuclear.....

So far, wind / solar etc power is more than 10x as much $$$ to produce as Nuke. Coal, oil, gas is too dirty and $$$
Every one wants it, but know one wants to pay 10x as much for it.
Quite the situation........

BTW Regular is $4.25 where I live.
Wind has actually become very competitive but it doesn't work everywhere, or even all of the time, so by itself it will never be more than just a partial solution. Solar is still very costly. Nobody really knows how much it would cost to build a nuclear plant in the U.S. because we haven't built one here in 40 years. Estimates from some of the companies that were planning to build one recently were as much as $9 billion per plant. A similar sized coal plant may cost a third as much and a gas plant a 10th with wind falling somewhere between coal and gas. That's a huge fixed cost difference to amortize, and doesn't include whatever safety upgrades might now be required following the Fukushima disaster. Whatever hope we had for a nuclear Renaissance in the US is long gone, I think.
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Old 04-24-2011, 09:42 AM   #158
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And the biggest source of electricity purchased utilizes coal, which in many ways is 'dirtier' than oil. Not sure that's a 'win'.

-ERD50
Coal gasification is getting another look to produce a variety of energy solutions.

If the cost of certain types of conventional fuel (raw energy sources) continue to increase and maintain higher levels... this will be a viable alternative.
But gasifying coal takes energy, so you need more coal for the same output. So that makes the environmental damage and habitat destruction from mining even worse. I don't know how that compares with burning it, maybe better overall, but I wouldn't call it 'clean'.

Quote:
Most consider it to be a temporary solution till there is some sort of hydrogen fuel or fuel cell breakthrough that makes it viable.
Until the laws of physics are changed, this isn't going to happen.

1) There is no large source of "hydrogen fuel". Almost all the hydrogen we have is bound up in oil and natural gas (hydro-carbons) or water (H20) and it takes energy to release them from their bonds. As has been said many times, hydrogen is not a fuel, but it can be used as energy storage/trenasport. It's not a solution at all.

2) We will not see any breakthroughs in Fuel Cells. They are operating close enough to their theoretical efficiencies that we might see incremental improvements in cost and size, but no 'breakthroughs'. Again, where is the fuel going to come from ( waste gas from landfills and some bio-gas sources could be good, but these are limited)?

Quote:
The US has a lot of coal... as does China. Converted Coal might serve as an alternative fuel that caps crude inflation (demand vs supply).... substitutes!

However... that would probably just mean there is availability... but at higher prices!
Agreed. As oil prices rise, alternatives (cleaner or not) will become relatively more cost effective. One advantage of Electric Vehicles is that they will take electricity from any source, so are adaptable to whatever source can supply electricity.

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Old 04-24-2011, 10:14 AM   #159
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I have not really done a study on green/alternative energy, however, I have heard that for X capacity of wind energy produced you have to built staff and have available .70 x X of coal or gas fired plant for when the green energy is not capable of producing. Seems if you include the financial and environmental cost of this, you come up with a different picture.

In the 70's when oil spiked, coal gasification and other alternative energy solutions were looked at and some even funded. Oil went down and investors lost billions. As long as cheap oil is available, and from what I have read it is going to be for a long time, then higher price energy will only be available if government makes up the difference.
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Old 04-24-2011, 12:56 PM   #160
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But gasifying coal takes energy, so you need more coal for the same output. ...

Until the laws of physics are changed, this isn't going to happen.

...

-ERD50

Yup...

But, the transformation of the fuel from one form to another may be worth the energy loss (economically) for a while.

It could hinge on how desperate we get before there is a break through in hydrogen or viable alternatives are found.
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