Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 09:19 AM   #181
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 860
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
SUV prices are already artificially deflated from the lack of a carbon tax. Adding a carbon tax would price them fairly according to how they pollute.

As far as people's "freedom" to purchase an SUV, this isn't a Socialist Paradise. You're not a commie, are you?
Huh?
__________________

__________________
mykidslovedogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 09:20 AM   #182
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,255
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
If we go down that road, we should probably be talking about a progressive tax on other enrgy sources, too. (cents per kwh, maybe tagged to the original source of the power. That would encourage people to switch power sources to those which are no based on fossil fuels). If we only tax vehicular fuels electric cars will get an unfair advantage and we'll end up transferring the problem--polluting more and burning more fuel at power stations rather than in the vehicles.

Maybe global warming is a problem, and maybe humans are responsibe for it. Maybe not. I'm personally more motivated by the competitive advantage the US may reap by getting off oil. If we can get ahead of this and wean ourselves to a lower level of dependency, it is possibe we'l have a competitive leg up on Europe and Asia when Chinese demand and other factors drive the price of oil up. I'm not a believer, yet, that market forces alone won't provide sufficient inducement t do this development, but we should at least look at the issue and see if a good business case can be made for taxing oil and using the proceeds for alternative energy development. I'm not optimstic: government has done a terrible job of picking winning technolgies in alternative energy development (oil shale, hydrogen power, and now ethanol. Not encouraging).
samclem - I am in total agreement. I was limiting my comments to gasoline only because of the earlier 'SUV/freedom/punishment' post. To keep from just shifting use from one polluting source to another, they would all need to be taxed relative to the 'cost' of their pollution. Not a trivial task, and the politicians and lobbyist would mess it all up every which way

But, if we *could* do even a first approximation of those costs, it would be a boost to the market to develop alternate lower-polluting sources. And I do prefer that approach to the current problems you outline - the govt now 'picks' a favored technology, and provided subsidies to that technology. So, even if a better option comes along, it cannot really compete until they get their lobbyists to provide a subsidy for their technology. It's a mess.

Yep, hydrogen, ethanol, poor choices - but they get votes and/or have a lobby behind them.

We're doomed Even if the real solutions stand up and wave a flag and shout "Here I am!", the political system and 'free lunch' voters and lobbyists will find a 'better' solution. We're doomed

Or, just maybe, technology and free markets will triumph over the political mess and save us in spite of it. I think there is a fighting chance for that.

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 09:28 AM   #183
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,543
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

all you oil haters will still be filling up at Exxon for the next 30 years since the US has over 1 trillion barrels of oil within our borders that is currently politically locked from the market
__________________
al_bundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 09:36 AM   #184
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 860
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
They should pay a penalty. Those seven kids are producing two families worth of methane contributing a disproportionate share to GW
Interesting opinion. As long as doing something for the "greater good" has no negative impact on you or benefits you, then its OK. Same as your opinions about health insurance. You feel that one should not have to pay higher premiums for using more health care than other people (you want nationalized health insurance - someone else to pay for your healthcare), but, you want someone who needs a bigger car than you to be penalzied. I know...maybe the government should pay for our Prisms, or better yet, buy our carbon credits for us. Then we will all be equal! ...and your tax dollars can be used to take care of the families with 7 children.

Half of the children were adopted to save them from an abusive situation. These kids already existed before they became part of the family. Driving everyone in an SUV saves the world from two families having to drive two separate cars. Now do you still think the parents should still pay a penalty for having to have an SUV?
__________________
mykidslovedogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 09:50 AM   #185
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Now do you still think the parents should still pay a penalty for having to have an SUV?
Oh no, not at all. As a matter of fact, they should get welfare to help raise dem chilluns in a biblically appropriate way, don't you think?
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 09:51 AM   #186
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Being naturally cynical, I'm not convinced that either side of this issue is free from non-scientific influences.

Strategically, we in the USA would probably be wise to reduce our depndence on foreign energy supplies. Additionally, improving the efficiency of our vehicles, appliances, generating plants, etc. makes sense for both economic and environmental reasons. Since the inception of the EPA, levels of various pollutants have been reduced, and our economy is still strong, so it's not a given that being "cleaner" will plunge us into the Dark Ages. Still, there's no use tilting at windmills...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 09:56 AM   #187
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
kcowan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pacific latitude 20/49
Posts: 5,693
Send a message via Skype™ to kcowan
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
...Now do you still think the parents should still pay a penalty for having to have an SUV?
I think that imposing a substantial tax on fuel is the fairest way. Then the economics of driving an SUV instead of 2 cars will still hold. This approach has been proven in Europe for many years. Why reinvent the wheel?
__________________
For the fun of it...Keith
kcowan is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 10:10 AM   #188
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 860
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Oh no, not at all. As a matter of fact, they should get welfare to help raise dem chilluns in a biblically appropriate way, don't you think?
These folks work and pay their own way, and heck, if their taxes are going to pay for your health insurance, then it's only fair that your taxes help pay for their transportation! There's the solution! Government gives each family money to buy carbon credits based on family size! Problem solved....
__________________
mykidslovedogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 10:12 AM   #189
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
These folks work and pay their own way, and heck, if their taxes are going to pay for your health insurance, then it's only fair that your taxes help pay for their SUV!
Uhuh. How about the 7 dependent tax exemptions, child tax redits, and Gawd knows what else they get? I suspect my taxes subsidize theirs, thank you very much. But what else is new? Us blue staters have long carried the financial burden of the welfare red staters.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 10:34 AM   #190
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
all you oil haters will still be filling up at Exxon for the next 30 years since the US has over 1 trillion barrels of oil within our borders that is currently politically locked from the market
Now you're just yanking our chains.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

U.S. Proved Reserves of Crude Oil as of December 31, 2005
21,757 million barrels
__________________
eridanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 10:38 AM   #191
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,633
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Interesting opinion. As long as doing something for the "greater good" has no negative impact on you or benefits you, then its OK. Same as your opinions about health insurance. You feel that one should not have to pay higher premiums for using more health care than other people (you want nationalized health insurance - someone else to pay for your healthcare), but, you want someone who needs a bigger car than you to be penalzied. I know...maybe the government should pay for our Prisms, or better yet, buy our carbon credits for us. Then we will all be equal! ...and your tax dollars can be used to take care of the families with 7 children.
Sorry, MKLD, you don't understand me at all. I don't want someone else to pay. Virtually everything I recommend would cost me a lot more. I think the Bush tax cuts were a travesty -- but they are great for my pocketbook. DW and I have a substantial taxable income, we have good health insurance, we have LTC., so these changes will not directly improve our lot. But we think it is in our self interest that we don't leave 1/3 of the country behind. I am willing to take a big hit in the pocketbook to deal with inequities. If the policies I espouse come to pass, I will continue to be in a tax bracket that assures I am hit disproportionately hard in ER. You can argue that I am wrong headed but I don't see how my positions and actions are hypocritical.

By the way, don't tell me I can give the extra taxes back to the Government as I often hear. That is a fatuous argument. The changes have to be structural to be effective. I give back by volunteering my time. And I push for structural change that will cost me more but (IMHO) improve the country.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 10:44 AM   #192
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,543
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
Now you're just yanking our chains.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

U.S. Proved Reserves of Crude Oil as of December 31, 2005
21,757 million barrels
don't forget ANWR which the greenies fight tooth and nail from even finding out how much oil is in there, eastern continental shelf, eastern gulf of mexico, and the Rocky Mountains which has oil in the form of shale or something.
__________________
al_bundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 10:49 AM   #193
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
wabmester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,459
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR
Being naturally cynical, I'm not convinced that either side of this issue is free from non-scientific influences.

Strategically, we in the USA would probably be wise to reduce our depndence on foreign energy supplies. Additionally, improving the efficiency of our vehicles, appliances, generating plants, etc. makes sense for both economic and environmental reasons. Since the inception of the EPA, levels of various pollutants have been reduced, and our economy is still strong, so it's not a given that being "cleaner" will plunge us into the Dark Ages. Still, there's no use tilting at windmills...
My Big Epiphany in this debate is that it has little to do with science. In the end, this has to be positioned as a moral issue. Man is cursed with the knowledge that he can change the environment, and he's cursed with the ability to feel guilty about that.

Evolution, including climate evolution, is a rough-and-tumble guilt-free business. It never had a negative connotation until we came along, and now we want to reduce our evolutionary impact. So, "take nothing but photographs and leave nothing but footprints" is becoming incorporated into our moral doctrine. Not a "bad" idea, but it's a pretty arbitrary moral choice like most other moral choices.

So, our goal as a species is to stop evolution. We want the status quo in terms of our environment! Especially when changes might affect cute fuzzy animals or humans.
__________________
wabmester is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 10:51 AM   #194
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
which has oil in the form of shale or something.
Sounds like an authoritative source. :
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 11:15 AM   #195
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
don't forget ANWR which the greenies fight tooth and nail from even finding out how much oil is in there,
The USGS predicts with a 95% certainty that there's at least 6 BBO in northern Alaska. The Mean is 10 BBO, and there's a 5% chance that there's around 16 BBO.

Even with a super-field, it'll last us about 2 years.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm

ANWR isn't a solution. It can only delay the inevitable.
__________________
eridanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 11:22 AM   #196
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
The USGS predicts with a 95% certainty that there's at least 6 BBO in northern Alaska. The Mean is 10 BBO, and there's a 5% chance that there's around 16 BBO.

Even with a super-field, it'll last us about 2 years.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm

ANWR isn't a solution. It can only delay the inevitable.
Yeah but, but, but... Hillary will raise your taxes if she is elected! And Nancy Pelosi slipped Ahmadeninijad the tongue last week in Syria! And Harry Reid is going to surrender to the Islamufascits!
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 11:30 AM   #197
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,543
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5424033

I hope NPR isn't too right wing for anyone. they say 800 billion barrels of oil, i've heard of theories that it can be over a trillion.
__________________
al_bundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 11:37 AM   #198
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5424033

I hope NPR isn't too right wing for anyone. they say 800 billion barrels of oil, i've heard of theories that it can be over a trillion.
Uhuh, lots of *maybe* oil that nobody knows how to extract economically and which is in an area that lacks the necessary infrastructure to produce and transport any such production. Yeah, t hat sounds like a great reason to trash the area's environment...

:
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 11:39 AM   #199
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,543
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

typical answer
__________________
al_bundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Global warming and financial positioning
Old 04-11-2007, 11:40 AM   #200
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Global warming and financial positioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
typical answer
Why yes it is. Uninformed suggestions like yours usually receive similar responses from multiple sane people.
__________________

__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:45 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.