GM: EV1 vs. EPS

[Midpack]

I suspect that you and I are both right on this. There is likely an excess of electricity available at night today. John Q Public is not noted for cooperating very well and at least some of us would need/want to recharge during the heat of the day and many utitlities would not be able to meet the demand. The amount of electricity required to recharge several million electric vehicles would be massive. Just a guess but I think electric car technology and ownership will advance faster than any increase in electrical generation capacity and there will be more brownouts in our future.

The nighttime deal will offset the impact to some extent, but otherwise I'm with you...

 

[ziggy29]

I suspect that you and I are both right on this. There is likely an excess of electricity available at night today. John Q Public is not noted for cooperating very well and at least some of us would need/want to recharge during the heat of the day and many utitlities would not be able to meet the demand. The amount of electricity required to recharge several million electric vehicles would be massive.

All the more reason to "encourage" off peak usage with tiered time-of-day pricing.

If Mr. Public could recharge his electric car for 18 cents per kWh during the day and 10 cents overnight, you might see this dangled carrot influencing behavior.

 

[samclem]

i can drive a Prius across the US and not worry about running out of energy for it. can't say the same thing about the EV1

Of course, if you do this, you'll get a lower efficiency than if you'd used a similar gas-powered car that was not a hybrid. On a long, straight run, the conversion of the mechanical energy to electricity and back to mechanical energy, plus the hauling around of batteries, etc results in lower overall efficiency. This is why we probably won't be seeing long-haul trucks using hybrid technology--it's a loser, a non-appropriate technology for this type of driving.

 

[samclem]

All the more reason to "encourage" off peak usage with tiered time-of-day pricing.

If Mr. Public could recharge his electric car for 18 cents per kWh during the day and 10 cents overnight, you might see this dangled carrot influencing behavior.

In the end, we'll probably end up with a grid that uses nuclear energy for baseline production (24/7) as it's easy to amortize the higher cost of building these sites with this type of use. The peak load will be carried by more expensive carbon fuels. Wind? Who knows how to integrate a source of energy that is totally intermittent and unpredictable--maybe just "bonus" production when it is available. Solar--same as wind, bit slightly more predicatable. It may end up making the most sense at the point-of-use.

 

[rgarling]

This is why we probably won't be seeing long-haul trucks using hybrid technology--it's a loser, a non-appropriate technology for this type of driving.

In the future, long haul trucking will be a non-appropriate technology

 

[samclem]

In the future, long haul trucking will be a non-appropriate technology

That's possible. That's a long way off, given the present US rail structure and the performance of rail freight carriers. Even where a rail spur goes directly to a user, deliveries and pickups are less reliable than by truck. Rail has to be more than just cheap--it needs to be dependable. Right now, trucks do that better than rail.

 

[FinanceDude]

Of course, if you do this, you'll get a lower efficiency than if you'd used a similar gas-powered car that was not a hybrid. On a long, straight run, the conversion of the mechanical energy to electricity and back to mechanical energy, plus the hauling around of batteries, etc results in lower overall efficiency. This is why we probably won't be seeing long-haul trucks using hybrid technology--it's a loser, a non-appropriate technology for this type of driving.

Why not put small windmills on the top of the trucks and use that energy??

 

[samclem]

Why not put small windmills on the top of the trucks and use that energy??

Now I know you're joking.

 

[soupcxan]

Why not put small windmills on the top of the trucks and use that energy??

In this forum we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

 

[ERD50]

Of course, if you do this, you'll get a lower efficiency than if you'd used a similar gas-powered car that was not a hybrid. On a long, straight run, the conversion of the mechanical energy to electricity and back to mechanical energy, plus the hauling around of batteries, etc results in lower overall efficiency.

There is an offsetting factor, that *may* provide better highway mileage for hybrids. Because you draw on the motor/battery for acceleration, the ICE is significantly smaller. But still large enough to propel the car at highway speeds. That bigger engine in a non hybrid is really only needed for acceleration.

It depends on a lot of factors, but a 1.3L engine carrying around a battery and motor *may* get better mileage than a 1.8L moving that same car at highway speeds. Less throttle drag, and less overall friction. And the smaller engine in a hybrid offsets some the extra weight from the battery/motor.

Well, the Honda Civiv comes both ways:

(City/Highway/Combined) - curb weight
Civic: ...........25/36/29 ...2751 (LX) 2806 (EX)?
Civic Hybrid: 40/45/42 ...2877

They don't list 0-60 times on the site, I don't know of performance is comparable or not. But 45> 36.

-ERD50

 

[whitestick]

All the more reason to "encourage" off peak usage with tiered time-of-day pricing.

If Mr. Public could recharge his electric car for 18 cents per kWh during the day and 10 cents overnight, you might see this dangled carrot influencing behavior.

Of course with that sort of incentive, Mr. Public would simply procure a spare set of batteries or 2, and charge at night, then feed it back in the grid during the day, arbitraging the rate. No end to the fun

 

[ERD50]

Of course with that sort of incentive, Mr. Public would simply procure a spare set of batteries or 2, and charge at night, then feed it back in the grid during the day, arbitraging the rate. No end to the fun

And if the rates reflect real costs, that would be a good thing.

Peak power is very expensive - electric companies need a grid and power stations big enough to handle the max, which only occurs a few percent of time. And the batteries feeding back during the day could cut grid use by 2X; you would draw your own power from it, and supply that power out also. And you would have a backup power system. Only trouble is, we will need much cheaper batteries.

At an $0.08 delta, a 50KWhr battery (that's what the Tesla has), you would 'earn' $4 on a full charge/discharge cycle. Assuming they would pay you the retail rates.

$4 *365 days = $1460. When I can buy that battery pack for $5000 or so and inverter and everything else for another grand or two, I'd seriously consider it.


-ERD50

 

[Patrick]

Why not put small windmills on the top of the trucks and use that energy??

That would work - while they're parked.