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Old 02-28-2009, 07:15 PM   #21
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If no one wanted their cars, how could they be #2 in sales volume? Simple question...
Were #1, Toyota has overtook them, they are declining fast. They have poor management and they build inferior products, that is why people in droves are going to Honda and Toyota, I realized this back in 1988 when I bought my first Honda, it was far superior to anything the big 3 were building, couple that with its superb reliability and outstanding resale value which is still true today, why would anyone buy anything from the big 3?

Buy whatever you want, it is your money. I just do not want my tax dollars going to support gm, their management and their inferior products. How much taxpayer money do we need to pour down this black hole until people realize they will never survive? It is a complete waste of taxpayer dollars.
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Old 02-28-2009, 09:18 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
If no one wanted their cars, how could they be #2 in sales volume? Simple question...
It does seem like a simple question, but all we get from tsturbo is answers to other questions, and accusations.

If "no one" bought those 23,987 Chevy Silverados, then I guess less than "no one" bought those 20,782 Camrys?

Jan 2009 % Chg from
Jan '08 YTD 2009 % Chg from
YTD 2008

Ford F - Series PU 25,237 -38.6 25,237 -38.6
Chevrolet Silverado PU 23,987 -33.6 23,987 -33.6
Toyota Camry / Solara 20,782 -34.2 20,782 -34.2
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 19,238 -7.2 19,238 -7.2
Honda Accord 16,581 -30.8 16,581 -30.8
Honda Civic 14,198 -32.4 14,198 -32.4
Nissan Altima 14,135 -34.7 14,135 -34.7
Honda CR-V 13,143 -17.9 13,143 -17.9
Dodge Ram PU 12,843 -35.5 12,843 -35.5
Chevrolet Malibu 9,312 -34.0 9,312 -34.0

-ERD50
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Old 03-01-2009, 07:44 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
It does seem like a simple question, but all we get from tsturbo is answers to other questions, and accusations.

If "no one" bought those 23,987 Chevy Silverados, then I guess less than "no one" bought those 20,782 Camrys?

Jan 2009 % Chg from
Jan '08 YTD 2009 % Chg from
YTD 2008

Ford F - Series PU 25,237 -38.6 25,237 -38.6
Chevrolet Silverado PU 23,987 -33.6 23,987 -33.6
Toyota Camry / Solara 20,782 -34.2 20,782 -34.2
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 19,238 -7.2 19,238 -7.2
Honda Accord 16,581 -30.8 16,581 -30.8
Honda Civic 14,198 -32.4 14,198 -32.4
Nissan Altima 14,135 -34.7 14,135 -34.7
Honda CR-V 13,143 -17.9 13,143 -17.9
Dodge Ram PU 12,843 -35.5 12,843 -35.5
Chevrolet Malibu 9,312 -34.0 9,312 -34.0

-ERD50
Hey erd, whatever. You go buy your silverado and focus, I could really care less. What I do not want, is my hard earned tax dollars going to support this company. Obviously you have a vested intrest or ulterior motive. You cannot stomach the fact that GM is sinking and sinking fast and your going down with the ship.
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:30 AM   #24
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You're right, the "Detroit 3" are selling cars - but ultimately you can hardly attribute their 50 year decline to anything but a lot of people don't want their cars. From 48.3% market share in the 60's to 19.1% in May 2008 (and probably lower today) with annual US sales ranging from 10 to 17 million/yr - would translate to 3 to 5 million car buyers have walked away from GM. That's a lot of people who clearly don't want their cars.

Noting that all automakers are doing poorly right now or that GM is selling some cars, is missing the point and avoiding the underlying issues.

Few if any Americans are happy about not buying American cars. After putting out clearly inferior cars decade after decade, you can't expect us to spend our hard earned dollars just to support Detroit 3 autoworkers who make more in wages & benefits than most of us, along with highly paid management who have gotten it wrong for 50 years. Buying a Honda, Toyota or Nissan also supports American autoworkers in many cases too.

How GM Lost Its Sales Crown to Toyota - BusinessWeek
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:30 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
If "no one" bought those 23,987 Chevy Silverados, then I guess less than "no one" bought those 20,782 Camrys?

-ERD50
Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Noting that all automakers are doing poorly right now or that GM is selling some cars, is missing the point and avoiding the underlying issues.
Saying GM makes cars no one wants is patently false, and indicates to me that there is an emotional component involved. It's a freakin' car company, not Stalin... As for the other points, I've never argued otherwise, and am not missing the point.
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:40 AM   #26
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You're right, the "Detroit 3" are selling cars - but ultimately you can hardly attribute their 50 year decline to anything but a lot of people don't want their cars. From 48.3% market share in the 60's to 19.1% in May 2008 (and probably lower today) with annual US sales ranging from 10 to 17 million/yr - would translate to 3 to 5 million car buyers have walked away from GM. That's a lot of people who clearly don't want their cars.

Noting that all automakers are doing poorly right now or that GM is selling some cars, is missing the point and avoiding the underlying issues.

Few if any Americans are happy about not buying American cars. After putting out clearly inferior cars decade after decade, you can't expect us to spend our hard earned dollars just to support Detroit 3 autoworkers who make more in wages & benefits than most of us, along with highly paid management who have gotten it wrong for 50 years. Buying a Honda, Toyota or Nissan also supports American autoworkers in many cases too.

How GM Lost Its Sales Crown to Toyota - BusinessWeek
Right on!
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:41 AM   #27
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I think one of the first things that needs to be addressed (among other things) is a way to reassure consumers that their warranty will be safe and honored. I'd sooner the government work with GM to provide some warranty assurance than continue to hand them mountains of cash to burn. That might get at least some sales back and slow the burn rate.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:51 AM   #28
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I think one of the first things that needs to be addressed (among other things) is a way to reassure consumers that their warranty will be safe and honored. I'd sooner the government work with GM to provide some warranty assurance than continue to hand them mountains of cash to burn. That might get at least some sales back and slow the burn rate.
I agree 100%. I think this could be something that the govt could do that probably meets my criteria for govt involvement:

1) The govt is probably the only one who *could* do it.
2) It could be for the "common good". That is, it is a confidence issue in GM, and this warrenty assurance could build that confidence, and probably for very litttle cost. The govt wouldn't be providing the warranty, just "warantying" the waranty (if that makes sense).

Im not a lawyer, but this is the kind of thing that I would think would come out of bankruptcy proceedings. I don't know if there is legal precedence for taking action like that outside of court-controlled bankruptcy, but I don't know much about that.




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Hey erd, whatever. You go buy your silverado and focus, I could really care less. What I do not want, is my hard earned tax dollars going to support this company. Obviously you have a vested intrest or ulterior motive. You cannot stomach the fact that GM is sinking and sinking fast and your going down with the ship.
Wrong on all counts.

In fact, any vested interest I have is as a taxpayer, so just like you I'd prefer to see them go bankrupt rather than having the govt throw money into them. A BK just might allow some of their underlying problems to get fixed. If not, and they fail, well that's life.

The reason I challenge you on your "no one is buying their cars" is because is is an untrue statement. It adds nothing to the conversation here, in fact it detracts from it as it is just noise that I need to sift through to get to meaningful statements. And when you are challenged, you drag other 'stuff' into the thread.

You can have your opinion on the quality and appeal of GM cars, this is a free country. But please don't fill the thread with noise.

Thank you.

-ERD50
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:46 PM   #29
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To say "no one is buying their cars" is obviously an overstatement, but it hints at the underlying problem- millions of people have chosen to buy a Honda or Toyota instead of something from GM. I'll spare you the details, but I'm one of them with good reason.
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Old 03-01-2009, 05:00 PM   #30
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...indicates to me that there is an emotional component involved...
et tu, Brute?
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Old 03-02-2009, 08:39 AM   #31
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et tu, Brute?
I haven't called anyone "fanboy" yet...

I think GM's (and the UAW's) problems are well documented. But stating that "no one wants their cars", or something to that affect, adds more heat than light... Plus, what's this, the fifth or sixth GM-bashing thread?
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Old 03-02-2009, 11:47 PM   #32
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I think GM's (and the UAW's) problems are well documented. But stating that "no one wants their cars", or something to that affect, adds more heat than light... Plus, what's this, the fifth or sixth GM-bashing thread?
Hey, they deserve it.........
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Old 03-03-2009, 03:48 AM   #33
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The reason I challenge you on your "no one is buying their cars" is because is is an untrue statement. It adds nothing to the conversation here, in fact it detracts from it as it is just noise that I need to sift through to get to meaningful statements. And when you are challenged, you drag other 'stuff' into the thread.
Some threads are full of declarations totally out of step with the facts that can be gathered.

It seems that some people feel that because they have some vague feeling about something that it must correspond to the outside world. Not so!

Facts are fairly easy to find and vet today. Why not do that?

There are many reasons why GM might be losing market share aside from unpopular cars. They dominated when there were essentially 3 car companies selling in America. When other quality manufacturers come in that had to change.

I don't understand why someone would post obviously untrue or distorted assertions. Often it might come from some emotionally compelling agenda on the part of the poster, sometimes from simple incomplete information. These types can be differentiated by the posters response to a limited, fact based comment.

If he comes back with more BS, or other distorted manipulative arguments he has shown that he is operating on an agenda. It might be personal, it might be commercial.

But I don't pay any more attention to what that sort of poster has to say.

Ha
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:10 AM   #34
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Some threads are full of declarations totally out of step with the facts that can be gathered.

It seems that some people feel that because they have some vague feeling about something that it must correspond to the outside world. Not so!

Facts are fairly easy to find and vet today. Why not do that?
Because in today's society, with the easy access to the Internet, "experts" are created.........


Quote:
There are many reasons why GM might be losing market share aside from unpopular cars. They dominated when there were essentially 3 car companies selling in America. When other quality manufacturers come in that had to change.
They have been losing market share over a 30 year timeframe, but didn't adjust to that reality. GM has NEVER made money on small cars, which is where the Asian carmakers killed them first, and have moved on to their bread and butter, SUVs.........


Quote:
But I don't pay any more attention to what that sort of poster has to say.Ha
I notice "cardude" has smartly stayed out of this thread. There's a guy living the nightmare, not some nobody spouting facts. It as a very sad and emotional day for me when I bought the first car for ME that was Japanese. I was a domestic car homer forever.........

Now I have two Hondas in my driveway and no regrets. GM or Ford can get me back at some point but I have to see they are serious about building better cars and then I will give them a try..........too much frustration over the years to go back.

A short story. My FIRST huge problem with GM was a 96 Pontiac grand Prix. I ordered it from the factory, and at the time was working as a Pontiac sales manager in a large metro dealer. At 27,000 miles, and 3 months out of warranty, the tranny went. Pontiac REFUSED to give me any help or goodwill at all. Luckily I knew a guy from the factory who intervened on my behalf anf got GM to cover 2/3 of the cost. However, it was really an eye opener for me, it proved:

1)GM didn't care about the customer

2)Quality was an issue back then. Seems to me a car that had been made on that platform for 8 years should have had the bugs worked out by then...........
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:44 AM   #35
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I don't understand why someone would post obviously untrue or distorted assertions. Often it might come from some emotionally compelling agenda on the part of the poster, sometimes from simple incomplete information.
I believe it is even simpler than that.
I think there is an urge to make one's point through exageration. This seems to happen more often with some people than others and in some types of arguments (global warming, gun control and bailouts all seem to fit in that group).
If the people making the outrageous exagerations would simply acknowledge the exageration, they could eliminate the lightning rod of their exageration and get on with making their point.
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