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Old 02-15-2009, 06:56 PM   #41
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Not even Germans want to live in the former DDR, except perhaps in Berlin.
True, but the other question is: Is the '72 Dart a busted up $1000 piece of junk or a well-preserved $20,000 classic?
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:00 PM   #42
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Why can't the UAW get it through its head that the company they work for is bankrupt? Kaput. Gone. Over. History.
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:14 PM   #43
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True, but the other question is: Is the '72 Dart a busted up $1000 piece of junk or a well-preserved $20,000 classic?
I pictured it rusted out, on cement blocks, with Kudzu vines growing through it.

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Old 02-15-2009, 08:21 PM   #44
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Why can't the UAW get it through its head that the company they work for is bankrupt? Kaput. Gone. Over. History.
Not to get overly political, but there is no other answer:

The UAW cannot get it through its head, because the UAW helped get the current administration in office, and now it is looking for its payback. That payback is likely to be in the form of making sure that those companies do not go bankrupt. It is a different reality. Not wrong, different.

That's a fact, Jack. Or as close to one as we can get without scientific proof.

OK, I'll take it a step further. The UAW bled the D-3 when they could (using the threat of strike). Now that the D-3 have no more blood, they are eying the veins of the govt (you and me). Can it be described differently? I don't think so.

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Old 02-15-2009, 09:08 PM   #45
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I think that the UAW knows that it is losing its grip and they are starting to panic. I have seen it many times in Europe. There comes a point where the union would rather see the company shut down and layoff its entire workforce rather than seeing its members make further concessions and lose face (see what happened to Alitalia last year). It's crazy, it doesn't make any sense, but that's what they do!
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:50 PM   #46
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Let's see how does Braniff, Eastern, and PanAm sound? Just to name a few!
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:22 AM   #47
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I think that the UAW knows that it is losing its grip and they are starting to panic. I have seen it many times in Europe. There comes a point where the union would rather see the company shut down and layoff its entire workforce rather than seeing its members make further concessions and lose face (see what happened to Alitalia last year). It's crazy, it doesn't make any sense, but that's what they do!
You are neglecting the fact that a union is a business. It's primary objective is not to welfare of its members but in the union continuing to exist. That way the "fat cat" union leaders keep their perks and paychecks. They like to convince their members that they are worried about them but that is secondary.

If the union makes major concessions to keep the company solvent, the members see less money and/or benefits. They immediately start to ask themselves why are they paying dues to the union when they give back wages and benefits. That makes the union vulnerable to another union taking over their industry or even to be decertified. It also makes the union look less desireable when they are trying to organize another company.

From a business perspective, the union will run a company or an entire industry into the ground.

Look at what's happening in Detroit. There are massive layoffs and many of them are permanent. The concessions being made are only giving back the most unbelieveable benefits that the union got in early contracts. If they didn't give up the "paid" layoffs, they wouldn't be able to get any federal help.

Many airlines have gone down in union flames. The steel industry is a mere shadow of its former self in the US.
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:42 AM   #48
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I imagine that GM would rather have Chapter 11 than government bailouts. Accepting the bailout and "trying" to salvage the business is probably just good PR. Now they can have the Chapter 11 they preferred all along.
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:04 AM   #49
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You are neglecting the fact that a union is a business. It's primary objective is not to welfare of its members but in the union continuing to exist. That way the "fat cat" union leaders keep their perks and paychecks. They like to convince their members that they are worried about them but that is secondary.
This reminded me of a post I made earlier on this subject:

Senator Corker's Corker - Automaker bailout


Reader's Digest version: On the SAME website, when they are addressing their members and telling them the benefits of UAW membership, they claim their members receive over 43% more in compensation than non-union.

On another page on the same site, when addressing the public and trying to tell them that UAW workers don't really get much more than others and couldn't possibly be responsible for any part of the D-3's demise in any way, they claim their members only make about 14.3% more.

Neither number appeared to include legacy benefits, but some real cherry picking of years, and what is included in "compensation". That sort of distortion sets me off.

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Old 02-16-2009, 09:20 AM   #50
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True, but the other question is: Is the '72 Dart a busted up $1000 piece of junk or a well-preserved $20,000 classic?
It depends on which motor it has, if it has the 318, then maybe........
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:30 AM   #51
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It depends on which motor it has, if it has the 318, then maybe........
I envision a 318 engine, an aftermarket AC unit on the front hump that blows snowballs all summer, and there's not even a leak around the funky rear in-window. I'd go with a 4-door for practicality in this daily driver.
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:36 AM   #52
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There's only three things wrong with GM U-A-W

Their ability to build smaller cars with lower margins to save the company are in serious peril because the weight of the union is like an albatross around their neck.

There's plenty of blame to go around, but I think the arrogance GM had in the past is almost gone, which may allow them to survive.........
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:39 AM   #53
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....
Last but not least, would you prefer to live like the median German, or the median Arkansan?

Unless you really love hog jowl, I'd recommend Germany.

Ha

Rezept: Erbseneintopf mit Schweinebacke - essen & trinken

Or perhaps if you don't care so much for "hog jowls": Eisbein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as long as "hog jowls" are now indicative of standard of living - better not go to Italy: Guanciale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:44 AM   #54
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You are neglecting the fact that a union is a business. It's primary objective is not to welfare of its members but in the union continuing to exist.
You raise some good points I hadn't considered before. The interests of the union can be far out of sync with the interests of the members.

It's a little like a real estate agent working for the seller: They get paid based on a strict commission, so it would seem at first glance that their interest in getting the highest price would match that of the seller. But if they discount the house 10% from it's fair market value, they can sell it in three days instead of six months, invest far less money in advertising, and move on to the next property. It's the seller who loses thousands.
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:49 AM   #55
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You raise some good points I hadn't considered before. The interests of the union can be far out of sync with the interests of the members.
Often a union does have interests very much aligned with its members. GM and the UAW is a tougher case, though.

In the short term, sure, the rank and file of the UAW may be better served by not making many concessions. But some of them may realize that this goose can't lay many more golden eggs before it dies, and that in the long term they may be better off conceding that point and getting silver eggs for many years to come.
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Old 02-16-2009, 10:42 AM   #56
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Hey, if the government eventually invests so much in GM that they own it, maybe the workers would become WG and GS-series federal employees and would no longer be allowed to be UAW members. And AFGE can't strike.

At least then we'd have an honest socialist state-owned enterprise for all to see, not this unholy alliance whereby politicians use the police power of the state to take money from the public to enrich union leaders.
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Old 02-16-2009, 12:54 PM   #57
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There's only three things wrong with GM U-A-W
...
.....
The UAW is a big part of GM's problem, but the UAW didn't design some of the butt-ugly cars GM has made in recent years, or the stupid cars (friend's $80k Cadillac XLR that can't carry one set of womans golf clubs). The UAW didn't negotiate that deal that required GM to BUY Fiat or pay a something like a billion dollar penalty.
GM is morons leading morons.
Ch 11 doesn't solve all problems. United Airlines (my alma mater) was morons leading morons before they went into Ch 11, and they are still nearly as bad.
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:10 PM   #58
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The UAW is a big part of GM's problem, but the UAW didn't design some of the butt-ugly cars GM has made in recent years, or the stupid cars (friend's $80k Cadillac XLR that can't carry one set of womans golf clubs). The UAW didn't negotiate that deal that required GM to BUY Fiat or pay a something like a billion dollar penalty.
GM is morons leading morons.
But, I understand that GM is profitable and competitive outside the US. While I'm sure management has made some blunders, it's the same management (at least at the top) running the operation overseas.

I'm having trouble reconciling that one.


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Old 02-16-2009, 04:33 PM   #59
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I agree, GM has made a number of bonehead manuvers.
However, i also have to agree that the agreements with the UAW being so expensive GM can't make money on small cars is a doosy. And for that, I blame both the management and UAW.
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:52 PM   #60
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I agree, GM has made a number of bonehead manuvers.
However, i also have to agree that the agreements with the UAW being so expensive GM can't make money on small cars is a doosy. And for that, I blame both the management and UAW.
What was management to do? Strikes are expensive.

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