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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 07:12 AM   #21
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Re: Going broke at 81

I buy store brands, pack my lunch to work, and generally don't give a hoot about cache, all of which help to keep my budget where it is. I would still be "frugal" even if I was a brazilianaire...
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 11:07 AM   #22
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Re: Going broke at 81

Besides slimming my budget down from now until then to squeeze a few extra years out, but lets also look at the real spending requirements of someone in their 80's.

My dad lives in Sun City, where he's a fairly young 71 compared to the average of high 70's/low 80's neighbors.

In the majority of couples he knows, at least one spouse (and sometimes both) are severely limited by a physical ailment - strokes, bad hips/knees, minor to moderate alzheimers, etc. Most dont drive very much, if at all. Not many are eating exotic foods, and several are in fact putting bland food through a blender. Many dont drink, although a few are heavy drinkers despite their doctors advice. Quite a few travel and thats a fair source of cost. Quite a few also like to take the bus to reno or tahoe and gamble, which can suck a few dollars out of your wallet.

The vast majority are doing something, not sure what, inside their houses for most of the day. When I spend the day down there, the place looks like a neutron bomb went off a year earlier. Once or twice a day someone will hobble out to the mailbox or take the dog out for a 10 minute walk up and down the street. Maybe 20-25% get into their privately owned golf carts and buzz over to the golf course for 9-18 holes one to three times a week at a cost of about a buck a hole.

Providing you've got a paid for house and a paid for car (if you're even still driving), and you dont have an expensive taste for travel or gambling, i'm gonna bet your need for cash in your 80's and beyond will be pretty nominal. My dad has no debt and while he still buys himself a new car every 3-4 years and likes good food and wine, he's spending under $20k a year. He could easily get by on his social security and a few extra bucks. Ten years from now I doubt his needs are going to run much past a bowl of soup and something good on television.
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 11:17 AM   #23
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Re: Going broke at 81

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Originally Posted by TargaDave
I think it's a very different mindset for* those who have kids versus those who don't. Not better or worse, just very different.
Maybe I am unusual in this regard, but I don't plan on leaving my kids huge sums of money, barring one of them having developmental disabilities. I've seen too many people whose lives were pretty much ruined by having a trust fund. These folks basically never really had a real need to do anything, and tend to lead rootless lives.
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 11:21 AM   #24
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Re: Going broke at 81

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Ten years from now I doubt his needs are going to run much past a bowl of soup and something good on television.
Now there is a happy thought about "living" in retirement. *Sitting in front of the TV drooling into your bowl of soup. * :

Actually, I agee with the overall reduction in spending as we age. *The only exception is healthcare and some sort of long term care needs as we become more dependent on others for our daily care. *

It is hard to spend much when you are immobile or your brain has turned to swiss cheese. *I handle my mother's finances and while her overall costs of living have increased due to moving into Assisted Living, her "pocket money" expenses have gone to just about zero. *Getting on the bus to do to WalMart to go shopping for a few snacks is about the extent of her spending beyond the monthy facility charge which includes food (such as it is *:P). *

Spending budgets for most of us that live into our 80's and beyond may well be far less than that projected by many calculators. *If you have your long term living arrangements taken care of through personal funds or insurance ( ) then you can live on near nothing. *

Save enough to take care of that old person you will become but spend now on the "kid" that can still play. *The old person will be here soon enough. *
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 11:30 AM   #25
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Re: Going broke at 81

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Originally Posted by SteveR
Now there is a happy thought about "living" in retirement. Sitting in front of the TV drooling into your bowl of soup. :
You should look FORWARD to drooling into your soup, as you can then brag all week long about having a "bodily emission"

Whoops, there goes our G rating for the day, and its only 9:30...
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 11:51 AM   #26
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Re: Going broke at 81

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Originally Posted by uncledrz
Yrs and CT, I'm with you, planning to live well into my 90's (although if I go by family history I won't even get close).
CT and Sheryl, I'm with you that DW and I feel free to spend every dime we have, we've given our kids guidance, strength, solid family and spiritual backing and a good education, the money's for us.
CT, one small difference. *While we probably won't be spending as much after 85, we still plan to enjoy it just as much if not more -- the sorta "we've pulled one over on you by still being here" idea. *
Uncledrz
If I had kids I would probably want to leave them a little something. *I would also probably be "helping" them now, as my dad has done with my brother and I. * We were both stubbornly independent and resisted him supporting us - *I had a serious chip on my shoulder about "making it on my own."

I don't know what my SO's feeling will be about leaving his son and possible future grandchilden something - but generally he's of the *mindset that he "launched" his son well with support and education now it's up to him. *

As far as spending in the '80's I've assumed less travel budget after 85. *I see my parents and others have generally lost the enthusiasm for traveling too much, howver 78 yr old dad and his 80 yr old wife are going to China and Japan for 2 weeks next year... *

I assume my travel will no longer involve expensive activities like SCUBA diving, but I would probably enjoy some nice cruises, which are not cheap either.

I also figure on some increased costs, like paying someone else to do lawn work, home repairs and heavy cleaning if I'm still in my own home. Prescription meds? *Other health costs?? *

My Grandmother lived alone until 94, and then only went to assisted living, so I make my plans based on her case. *Now at 101 her only expenses are the nursing home, books, and chocolate.

Bottom line is I figure the spending at 80 to be about the same as prior years. *

My mantra: *All I can really know about my costs for the next 50 years, is that I don't know. * When we ER this young, we will need to remain extremely flexible and if the first few years (or any others) provide surprises, adjust accordingly. *

As to LOL!'s question - if I still have half my capital at 90:
a)* I will regret it
b) it will be time to spend like there's no tomorrow! *(literally)

Without major charitable contributions or a very fancy nursing home which (hopefully) will be paid for by LTC anyway, *I don't know how a 90 yr. old could spend that much! * *
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 12:07 PM   #27
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Re: Going broke at 81

I remember visiting my in-laws in Florida when they were still living. They lived in one of those mobile home parks for the retired. There was a club house, dancing, other events, a pool, etc. When my inlaws were younger, they really enjoyed the activities. My MIL used to go out on day bus trips with her girl friends in the park, to the beach or flea market, and hang out at the pool She loved it there. FIL would go to the dog track with his buddies.

But people who moved into the park in the 1970s grew older. It was getting pretty quiet around there the last few years we visited . FIL called it "God's vestibule." I know plenty people there were trying to get by on just social security and it was tough. Others maybe had pensions that disappeared when the spouse with the pension died. You would see a spouse die, some time go by, and after a while the kids would come by and pick up mom or dad and bring them back home to live.

After my MIL died, my FIL was a single man with a pension. He was very desirable to women in the park and I dislike saying it, but I think a lot of the attractiveness came from the fact that he could "loan" out bits of money here and and there, and treat the ladies to dinner on occasion. One woman was his "sorta" girl friend. She finally couldn't get along on just SS and her son moved in with her to help with the costs and the caregiving. Her family wanted her to move north and live with them. She just refused. It gets tough to move when you are old. Her son finally just got a job in Florida.

My FIL as he grew older needed more and more care. He didn't want to move back north either. Greg made lots of trips to Florida to deal with issues as they came up. I can't emphasize enough how difficult it is to deal with aging and struggling parents long distance.

If I give thought to old age, I worry most about loneliness, fears, and struggles with health problems.

Sorry, I don't even remember if I am on topic any more. I am just getting over a bout of some horrible stomach thing and am sitting here at home feeling a bit like I might when I am 90 years old.

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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 12:20 PM   #28
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Re: Going broke at 81

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Originally Posted by Martha

My FIL as he grew older needed more and more care.* He didn't want to move back north either.* Greg made lots of trips to Florida to deal with issues as they came up.* I can't emphasize enough how difficult it is to deal with aging and struggling parents long distance.*
Hmmm, that definately reinforces my feeling that moving closer to my parents was a good idea. I can't say that I love the idea of the future liability, but I am geographically the closest to my parents and I am also the one most likely to have the resources to help down the road. I suspect that being 45 minutes away will prove to be a lot better than being 1000+ miles away, just as it is preferable now while they are still in reasonably good shape. Now if I can just get one of my siblings to move down here...
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 12:28 PM   #29
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Re: Going broke at 81

I have a better old age story. My grandfather was a chicken farmer. He and my family lived together for all but a very few years. He was just part of the family. I loved his stories about the old days. When he collected SS it was like we all got rich. He lived to 99 years old. My dad once told me he was somewhat frustrated at times when his 90 plus year old father would treat him like a child. He ended that problem by one day starting to call his father by his first name, rather than dad.

We all had our family duties. When my grandfather got very old and blind, he sometimes would wander in the night, not knowing if it was night or day. My father made a mat that grandpa would step on when he got out of bed in the night. The mat would send out an alarm. We all took turns being on night grandpa watch. Even the little kids. Usually you just had to guide him to the bathroom and then back to bed. Or sometimes make a lttle snack.

Assisted living in rural America.
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 12:39 PM   #30
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Re: Going broke at 81

Interresting, Martha. I sometimes think that we as a society have lost out on a lot of good stuff by dissolving the extended family as a household. No doubt I am overlooking lots of negatives, but still...
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 12:49 PM   #31
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Re: Going broke at 81

Brewer, I read an article in the WSJ a few days ago about families blending together, with more than one generation under one roof. The purpose was to save money and get more house for the buck. The whole tone of the article was not that there was now one big extended happy family, but two very separate families in the same house. One woman commented on how nice it was that her 90 year old mother preferred not to eat dinner with them so that they could have some "family time." That thought would never in a million years crossed the mind of anyone in my family. We were all the family. Not just mommy, daddy and the kids.

But who am I to talk. We never had children.
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 01:00 PM   #32
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Re: Going broke at 81

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Originally Posted by Martha
Brewer, I read an article in the WSJ a few days ago about families blending together, with more than one generation under one roof.* The purpose was to save money and get more house for the buck.* The* whole tone of the article was not that there was now one big extended happy family, but two very separate families in the same house.*
My mother's parents shared their house with her grandfather. It was for financial reasons more than anything. My greatgrandfather owned a used furniture store and worked in it up to the day he died. None of them had much money and very few personal items beyond the basics to keep a house going.

My MIL from my second marriage lived with us for several months right after we got married in our 40's. She was alone and thought it would be best to move from FL to IL and live with us while she found a place of her own. Long story but she eventually moved back to FL. It was very tough on all of us with her living there. Sometimes it is just better to live apart and be happy than to try to live under one room but at each other's throats all the time.
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 01:16 PM   #33
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Re: Going broke at 81

I have the best of both worlds. I own the home next to my parents, we come and go as we please but spend lots of time at both houses. Grampi (91 yrs young) drives down every day for lunch, one sister lives 6 houses away, the rest are within a 10 minute drive. Makes it incredibly easy to travel and leave the granddog at home but I'm sure the tables will turn at some point and I'll end up the caregiver. We never had much money but somehow always got by.

Martha I never had children either and with DH being 12 yrs older I worry about what will happen after he's gone. He has one daughter and 2 stepchildren he raised from the time they were 6 and 4 but I don't think I'll see much of them after he's gone... unless of course I have a sizeable nestegg they think they may end up with.

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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 04:42 PM   #34
 
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Re: Going broke at 81

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Maybe I am unusual in this regard, but I don't plan on leaving my kids huge sums of money, barring one of them having developmental disabilities.* I've seen too many people whose lives were pretty much ruined by having a trust fund.* These folks basically never really had a real need to do anything, and tend to lead rootless lives.
Something about the timing here . . . by the time I leave my kids anything, they will be at least 40 years old (God willing), which is the age some of the ER wannabes who post here have picked to retire. This kind of inheritance is not the same as a from-birth trust fund. I hope to leave my kids ten tons of money. It's one way that prosperous families are built over generations. I don't want them dumpster diving, and I don't want them to be wage slaves. Also, I would like to pay my grandkids tuitions, like my parents have paid for my kids (who, I might add, have turned out damned well).

HH

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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 10-31-2005, 04:46 PM   #35
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Re: Going broke at 81

I would have liked to be closer to my mom in her last years. *I moved 2,000 mi away, and it started to become a serious problem, with her health issues, and frequent emergency hospitalizations. *We had started to develop plans for her to live with my brother, which probably would have been disaster. *But she didn't make it that far. * *After 4 *frantic cross-country flights with "she's not gonna make it" type calls from the ER, and about 6 months of missed work over three years, she finally passed away without me anyhow, *because she was doing much better and I went home.

You just never know. *But if you choose to live far from parents, you have to be comfortable with the decision and the potential consequesces.

Is this thread officially hijacked
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 11-01-2005, 06:57 AM   #36
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Re: Going broke at 81

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* Something about the timing here . . . by the time I leave my kids anything, they will be at least 40 years old (God willing), which is the age some of the ER wannabes who post here have picked to retire.* This kind of inheritance is not the same as a from-birth trust fund.* I hope to leave my kids ten tons of money.* It's one way that prosperous families are built over generations.* I don't want them dumpster diving, and I don't want them to be wage slaves.* Also, I would like to pay my grandkids tuitions, like my parents have paid for my kids (who, I might add, have turned out damned well).

HH

OK fair enough. In that set of circumstances, I suppose I will have had time to see how things turnn out with my kids. If they don't live in expectation of a big windfall, maybe it won't affect them when it happens. We'll all have passed a lot of water by the time my kids are in their 40s anyway, so things can change an awful lot by then.
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 11-01-2005, 12:04 PM   #37
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Re: Going broke at 81

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I think it's a very different mindset for those who have kids versus those who don't. Not better or worse, just very different.
Quote:
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Maybe I am unusual in this regard, but I don't plan on leaving my kids huge sums of money, barring one of them having developmental disabilities. I've seen too many people whose lives were pretty much ruined by having a trust fund. These folks basically never really had a real need to do anything, and tend to lead rootless lives.
I certainly wasn't implying huge sums of money, just the idea that there is something decent left for them. In our case DW and I both have modest (past and future) inheritances to deal with from each of our families. We would feel hypocritical spending it as opposed to setting it aside for our kids and grandkids as our parents did for us. Also forms a cushion if things get ulta nasty. I suppose if our kids turn into, or marry spend-junkies (god forbid) then we might set up a trust to make it last. I accept that there are very different opinions on this (no right or wrong).
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 11-01-2005, 01:21 PM   #38
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Re: Going broke at 81

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Originally Posted by TargaDave
I suppose if our kids turn into, or marry spend-junkies (god forbid) then we might set up a trust to make it last. I accept that there are very different opinions on this (no right or wrong).
This is always the hard part of estate planning. People change and marriages fall apart; new partners can be very thrifty or spend-thrifts. You cannot predict it so you have to plan around it if you can. My estate planning has everything except a token payment go to my wife. When she dies, the estate goes to whoever is left standing in the family. But, my wife is in control while she is still alive and if she spends it all then so be it. I started with nothing and it won't hurt my kids to do the same thing. If I manage to live to a ripe old age, then I will adjust my planning to address family changes or just spend it all before I die.

All kidding aside, if things go anywhere near my plan, the extended family will get a nice addition to their retirement or to bank accounts. Tax planning is a major concern (not goint to start that discussion again :) but one needs to keep Uncle Sam out of your estate aand appropriate planning can help to transfer what you have worked all your life to build with the least amount of tax.

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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 11-07-2005, 01:51 PM   #39
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Re: Going broke at 81

Just a thought about Cutthroat's comments on spending principal:

If you keep your principal constant in dollars, it's actually decreasing by about 3% per year from inflation.* After 30 years your principal has decreased by about 50% even if the numbers look identical.

So, most of us will be spending principal even if we don't realise it.

(edit)
Using the period 1974-2003, it looks like the decrease would be more like 70%
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Re: Going broke at 81
Old 11-07-2005, 04:27 PM   #40
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Re: Going broke at 81

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My estate planning has everything except a token payment go to my wife.* When she dies, the estate goes to whoever is left standing in the family.* But, my wife is in control while she is still alive and if she spends it all then so be it.
What if on her widow cruise she meets a charming man that you would immediately recognize as a bounder. But you are gone, and she is in new situation all alone.

So she marries this guy, and one way or another he or his children wind up with your blood sweat and tears.

For me, this would not be an acceptable outcome.

Ha
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