Join Early Retirement Today
View Poll Results: Where will the price of gold by in 5 years?
Over the next 5 years gold will out perform the SP500 by 10% or more 18 32.14%
Over the next 5 years gold will be with plus or minus 10% of the SP500 16 28.57%
Over the next 5 years gold will under perform the SP500 by 10% or more 22 39.29%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 04:24 AM   #81
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 699
Re: Gold

I'm stone cold sober too, and admit that I, too have a philosophical problem with gold. It is fairly useless stuff, except maybe for plating electrical contacts -- but note that even "gold-plated" is a synonym for gaudily useless. I don't even find it terribly attractive as ornamentation. The reasons for it to be considered valuable seem to be merely psychological: some other people consider it valuable, because yet some other people consider it valuable... A fiat commodity, if one will.

I'm willing to be convinced, but haven't yet been.

Bpp
__________________

__________________
bpp is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 08:32 AM   #82
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,071
Re: Gold

Wits are good. What owning and speculating in gold (and following the goldbug arguments) has done is give me a sense of "general proportion." And I understand, I think, the rejection of it by some. But . . . for example, there has been much discussion on this board about various related topics such as the survival of social security, one's house price, medicare, etc. All are at least partially related to this country's overall inflation rate. I believe gold is a measure of this in some way. Plus, if the actual inflation rate is higher than the gov'ts CPI figures, which I see, and say it's 3% higher on a $1000000 portfolio, then $30,000/year is currently being dissapated in stealth mode. This is probably more than many receive in pension, more than many will receive in SS--in other words, a big chunk of money over time. Plus, we are paying taxes on it too in a round about fashion in just trying to stay even.

This hurts retirees more than the younger, working people over time who probably haven't accumulated a large nest egg. This macro inflation issue is very important to my mind, and far more important than worrying about some future loss of a proportion of pension or SS. In a sense and behind our backs, I see our nest eggs being slowly drained. I don't even think most in gov't see things this way--as a conspiracy. I think they are just doing repeated short-term fixes of an immediate probem: "OK, time to pump again, it looks like things are slowing down again." We have been doing short-term fixes for too long--to my mind. Look at the So. American problem. They all like something for nothing every couple of decades. It just never works out well in the longer term. I'm worried this whole thing comes to a head in my life time. You can't keep fixing things forever with lower interest rates and the pump of paper and digital money.

--Greg

__________________

__________________
Compounding: Never forget! Never not remember!
greg is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 08:55 AM   #83
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7,408
Re: Gold

Hmmm

For ER - in general stay balanced(your version for you).

For Romance and male hormones - and growing up out West - gotta have some PM - coins and rocks and mebe some timberland. Just a little bit.

heh heh heh heh
__________________
unclemick is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 09:03 AM   #84
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Re: Gold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON
A little gold in physical form is probably not a bad idea just in case.*
Seriously, how many people buying gold are actually taking physical delivery?
__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 12:30 PM   #85
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32
Re: Gold

A few points that have not been mentioned: Gold did have a spike in the 70s as did oil at that time. They were in a sense linked, as the countries who sell us oil buy gold and believe in gold as true wealth rather than bits of paper with dead presidents, as another person mentioned. In 1971 Nixon stopped letting them trade their paper dollars back for our gold (foreign countries had been able, up to then, to turn their dollars in to the treasury and redeem in gold). When this ceased, they had to buy gold on the open market to get rid of their paper dollars and get the gold they wanted. That drove up the price of gold, and started the real price rise which peaked in 1980. Remember the double digit inflation of the 1970s that was also concurrent with gold and oil's rise. I am a big foggy on what happened that changed this cycle, without going back to read up on it, but I believe there were political agreements that broke this cycle. In modern times, note that when oil prices really started rising a few years ago, gold started rising as well. Yes, part of this is due to increased global demand for oil, but some of it is that the oil producing countries note our inflation and are reluctant to keep giving up a finite resource for infinite dollars.

Another point: The central banks have done their best to hold back the price of gold, since they know gold is a gauge of inflation and is the antithesis of fiat currencies. Central banks, by nature, want to defend their fiat currencies. They have been very public about their gold reserve sales, but data released seems to show that the banks continue, among themselves, to have roughly the same amount of gold reserves. Gold sold by central banks has always been "oversubscribed" so someone is happily buying it. It may simply be passed around between them. There are pages more of explanations, but it does get quite complex. Also they were leasing gold at a minimal rate, and using it as a carry trade with other currencies, knowing they were safe because they could prevent gold prices from unexpectedly rising. I believe much more about this will be discussed in the next few years.

As for the gold price being too high now, and going down a lot from here, gold is still very cheap based on 1980 prices. I contend that it has been artificially held down and undervalued for the last 20 years. The current gold/oil price ratio is about the same as when they both started increasing a few years ago. I don't see oil prices dropping in the near future, so I don't see gold dropping in value, either.

I am no expert on any of this despite having done a lot of reading in the last 5 or 6 years. It does get very complex. I believe gold is going up much more, but if anyone does not really understand why, or isn't comfortable owning it, then there are other means to hedge againt inflation, so use what works for you.
__________________
Focu$ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 01:56 PM   #86
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,412
Re: Gold

all i know is with my profits the last 2 years in gold and oil i can pay the additional gas costs for many years to come....aaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh finally pay back is good......
__________________
mathjak107 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 01:57 PM   #87
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
Re: Gold

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpp
I don't even find it terribly attractive as ornamentation.*
If you ever get the chance, go to the Museo Del Oro in Bogota. It may not convince you of the utility of gold, but I would bet it will convinse you of its beauty.

That people have fashioned unbelievably beautiful things from gold, for many , many years. and in many different cultures is surely some testimnony to its widespread appeal.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 02:34 PM   #88
Full time employment: Posting here.
Lusitan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 620
Re: Gold

I have thought about the WWII refugee stories and how there may be some truth in the fact that gold/diamonds would be useful to physcially have in a tight spot - doesn't need to be a Mad Max world, but some crisis of WWII proportions.

That said, here are two other questions:

(1) Where would you store your gold investments if you were truly using it as a hedge against this kind of disaster? Holding a precious metals mutual fund wouldn't do you any good (assume, for example, you were citizen of a country that was invaded and assets seized). So then you're faced with physical storage of gold.

You could hold it in your bank safe deposit box, if you've got one ... but if you don't you'd have to go out and invest in one. I'm not sure how much they cost but this would raise the cost of gold as an investment.

Or you could bury it in the backyard. I guess if you kept your mouth shut it would be relatively safe.

I thought about making a poll to ask where those of you who have invested in gold store it (no physical assets / bank / somewhere else) but even though polls are anonymous there may be a way for someone to trace who you are so I figure it's best to not even ask. (To avoid strangers digging holes in your backyard!)

In any case, truly using gold as a hedge against WWII type disaster definitely comes with its costs/risks.

(2) Even assuming you physically have gold during a crisis, how would you use it? I have no clue how physical gold is stored - coins I suppose, but at what size and approximate value? Would you really be able to get far trying to use gold as a medium of exchange for anything else? It's not like you could make change ...

Also, I wonder if we're reaching the point where society is close enough to gold to really place accurate value on it, even in times of crisis. Who would I go to in order to use my gold for something that I need? How would that person trust that what I have is real gold and not some modern synthetic? How would they have a clue as to how to value it? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that in years past, average people were more aware of what gold bought because of things like the gold standard, etc.

I suppose there are no absolute answers to these speculative questions. And I'm not knocking gold - the idea of holding some as a physical asset seems to have some merit as a hedge against disaster, at least in the past. I just wonder if it would still hold true in the future.
__________________
Lusitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 02:55 PM   #89
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Re: Gold

I guess if we did have a societal meltdown that gold might be handy (though Lusitan raises some good practical issues). It would probably be most useful in smaller denomination coins. But, if things get that bad, something you can eat would be worth even more, probably. If thing get that bad, ammunition would be handier than gold.


Maybe we'd be calculating our SWR in "rounds fired/traded per year"

__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 03:30 PM   #90
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,487
Re: Gold

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
If thing get that bad, ammunition would be handier than gold.
... making lead a precious metal?
__________________
d is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 03:44 PM   #91
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: Gold

The thing is, when "things turned to crap" and people ran off with their gold, gold had a stable value against a number of currencies. That hasnt been the case for some time now.

In the event of a broad worldwide (or even substantially large regionalized north american) economic failure...I just cant see who the heck would give you much of anything for your gold. Maybe hit you in the head and take it if they wanted it, considering how desperate your situation would be...on the run with a chunk of metal as your currency...

Like Sam said, a nice shotgun and some canned food might be a better idea.

Which when you think about it, sounds like that Y2K business.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 07:59 PM   #92
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32
Re: Gold

A few random thoughts concerning gold and silver ownership:

First, I think a Mad Max scenario, or even Weimar (sp)? Republic meltdown like in 1920s Germany is a bit extreme. We have a few 10,000,000 Mark bank notes in our coin/currency collection just as a reminder, though, that such things are possible. What is more likely is simply a continual erosion of the dollar's value, only at a faster pace. What if the Pension Guarantee Corp. can't keep up with large corporations' pension plans going under, and they turn to the government to kick in pension relief money, or Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac blow up, or there is any other sort of a derivatives meltdown. The government always monetizes the debt to save the financial system. You know, the whole "too big to fail" argument. Remember not too long ago, Alan Greenspan and members of the G-8 met to discuss derivatives. There are concerns about possible derivative crises. If anything like this happened, and the govenment convened and decided to monetize large amounts of debt, the dollar would be decimated virtually over night. It doesn't even take anything that severe. They just need to keep printing money for wars, Social Security shortfalls, natural disasters like Katrina and Rita, etc etc. I believe the true inflation rate is much higher than we are being led to believe. And I also believe that the influx of cheap goods from third world countries have been keeping many of our costs very low, offsetting some of our inflation with low cost goods. I also know people who have tracked their own yearly expenses for common household goods and food and they report a much, much higher rate of inflation.

I don't think most people own gold or silver intending to use it to barter for goods in the street. They want it to act as a store of wealth in case of monetary instability. It has always held its value in a currency crisis, such as what happened in Argentina not too many years ago. I first found out that 911 was taking place when I happened to be looking at the gold spot price chart on KITCO and saw the price of gold shoot up like a rocket. I turned on the TV to figure out what on earth was going on, and saw the Twin Towers in flames. So, whether we completely understand it or not, people consider gold as a place of refuge when an economy or currency is in danger.

It is also a reasonable investment when you expect the dollar or other fiat currencies to decline in value. We had a strong dollar policy for a long time, and that did depress the price of gold. Now, it appears that the strong dollar policy is mostly lip service, as the government realizes we must have a weaker dollar for our exports to be even marginally competitive. The dollar index was at 120 about 3 years ago and is at 89 to 90 these days. It had fallen quite a bit further, to the low 80s, then rallied somewhat, as might be expected after a large decline. I think the rally is about over, and we will retest the lows. During the recent rally, gold continued to rise *at the same time* as the dollar, which virtually never happens, so this shows incredible strength and demand for gold. It may also signal "Big Money" getting into gold before the dollar resumes its downtrend.

As for holding gold or silver, short of the Mad Max scenario, a gold mutual fund, gold ETF or gold stocks will probably serve you well. There is even a company that sells digital gold that works like a standard checking account, only your deposits are in gold, held outside the US. Physical silver such as US American Eagles or Canadian Maple Leafs (or old US 90% silver change) would work well for small amounts of useable, spendable "crisis" cash. Gold in small coins, easily recognized around the world so that you do not need to have it assayed are: 10th or 1/4 ounce American Gold Eagles, Canadian Maple Leafs, approx. 1/4 oz. British Sovereigns, 20 Franc Swiss or French coins (approx 1/5 oz.) etc. The US Government still sends British Sovereigns with our pilots in their survival packs in case they are shot down over foreign lands. They believe gold is money and acceptable in any culture and country. If you don't have a whole lot of coins, they don't take up much space and you could keep a few nearly anywhere.

I have spent a lot of time examing these same issues, as you have, and wrestling with the "what ifs."
__________________
Focu$ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-09-2006, 09:48 PM   #93
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,071
Re: Gold

CFB: I agree with you that in any sort of real and short-term crisis, gold will be about as useful as paper currency--maybe somewhat more, maybe somewhat less. In either case much less important than the crisis. All forms of money, a medium TO exchange, need civilization of a sort to work. In chaos, cheese and water is better. But when things settle down a bit, then . . . .

One last thing: Those that hold a significant portion of their assets in physical gold are, in a sense, playing the same game you play. If I remember an older post of yours correctly, you said that you had invested a significant portion of your assets in munis, basically because you didn't want to pay taxes for political, ethical or philosophical reasons related to current policies of our gov't. That's wonderful. When extreme goldbugs load up on physical gold, they are saying something similar. They are telling the world and gov't that they don't like the current economic system and how it is operating in destruction mode. They want out of our money system. This is sort of a core emotional response and somewhat primitive way of telling the powers that ARE to "kiss my a**; I'm out, and you can't touch me". It feels good. There are very few ways in our country to say you don't like the system and have it heard. Raising the price of gold with your own buying is one such way.

--Greg
__________________
Compounding: Never forget! Never not remember!
greg is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-10-2006, 06:45 AM   #94
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Gold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
I see your point.* I found my solution in zero debt and knowing that even if things get crappy but fall short of the mad max scenario, I'll still have at least a small leg up on everyone else.* That whole "I dont have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun YOU" idea.* All I have to do it put food on the table, stick something flamable in the fireplace and drop by the river for a few buckets of water once a day...should it come to that.

In the meanwhile, the wife and I have broadly marketable skills, an income stream from our investments, and no need to sell any assets for really any reason.

But as an aside, I'd rather haul some powdered milk than a bunch of frickin gold if I had to "run for it".* If it gets to the "run for the hills" stage, my money isnt going to be my biggest concern.
Heheh, I figure that if the commode hots the windmill, my skills in making beer and other fermented beverages will be in heavy demand.

Sorry, but the gold bugs are nuts. Oh, and as this thread expands, I note we are nearing a full moon.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-10-2006, 07:52 AM   #95
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7,408
Re: Gold

Man!!! - you guys forgot the freeze dryed food.

I remember that stuff well in the 70's - living in CO then - turned out to be the backpacker's best friend. Now if you were a Mormon out that way - seven yrs worth as I remember was the culturally accepted amount.

I may be an old SW Washington unreconstructed liberal DEM of lunchbucket persuasion BUT:

Still like pickup trucks, dogs, and pump shotguns - along with rocks, coins and timber.

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh - skip the freeze dryed food for now.
__________________
unclemick is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-10-2006, 07:57 AM   #96
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Gold

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemick2
pump shotguns
Yeah, but if you aren't a hunter what the hell do you do with the thing until the apocalypse somes? Its not like its a great thing for target shooting...
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-10-2006, 08:00 AM   #97
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Re: Gold

Good for spraying lawyers... :P
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is online now   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-10-2006, 09:59 AM   #98
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: Gold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON
But when things settle down a bit, then . . . .
Honestly, I think that after things settle down a bit, gold would be nearly worthless.
Quote:
One last thing: Those that hold a significant portion of their assets in physical gold are, in a sense, playing the same game you play. If I remember an older post of yours correctly, you said that you had invested a significant portion of your assets in munis, basically because you didn't want to pay taxes for political, ethical or philosophical reasons related to current policies of our gov't.
I have to go look for that post and figure out what i said, because thats the second time that came up. Unfortunately its 110% wrong. I never held a lot of munis. For a very short period of time I held a fairly small allocation of CA muni's. Somewhat related to that, I've posted that if two options are a wash, I'll take the one that doesnt involve me sending tax money to the government to piss away.

I dont see how anyone anywhere is going to give a rats behind about whether I have gold or not, or will change fiscal or monetary policies if I do, or that it will provide me any positive financial benefits in middling bad times, really bad times, or mad max times. Its a pretty hunk of metal that some people might profer a positive value to for a period of time...good bad or ugly.

Sorry cube-rat, there I go talking about your behind again

But if it works for you, go for it. I still havent heard a reasonable argument that says the asset is beneficial to hold for any other reason than the psychological aspects. I've never had the "is gold good" discussion before, and I can see why its placed in the same category as "mac vs windows" and "mortgage/no mortgage" and "early or late social security". People already have their minds made up and have collected the data that helps them feel comfortable with that decision. Not that the data and arguments will make any sense to anyone else or convince someone else to change their mind.

I held a little gold...3-5%...because sometimes people get nutty and run the price up. That happened. I sold. I probably wouldnt buy again even if the price drops severely, because the 'nutty' periods seem to be pretty far between. Sort of like shorting the stock market waiting for the next Great Depression.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-10-2006, 12:06 PM   #99
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,071
Re: Gold

CFB: What you just said about your munis reminds me that you're closer to correct about what you thought than I was. But you still don't want to pay for policies that you don't like, so my point stays valid. Many goldbugs see serious problems headed our way and see few alternatives.

And I also agree that if you want to remain in the fat part of the bell curve you should. It makes sense. No one should do anything that doesn't make sense to them, especially the nuts . Good luck with your choices.

--Greg
__________________
Compounding: Never forget! Never not remember!
greg is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Gold
Old 04-10-2006, 12:47 PM   #100
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: Gold

Actually I dont care at all about policies, its the waste. More than half my tax money gets pissed away for no useful purpose. Doesnt matter who is "in charge" or what "the policies" are. Might as well light it on fire.

I see plenty of serious problems headed our way. I've always seen plenty of serious problems headed our way. We'll either work them out or we wont. Odds on are that we will. If we dont, I still dont see how a hunk of metal is going to help me.
__________________

__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
And gold, gold!, GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!! yakers FIRE and Money 1 05-17-2006 11:03 AM
Not to throw gold bricks at the hornet's nest, but... brewer12345 FIRE and Money 9 04-15-2006 12:41 PM
Gold as Safety greg FIRE and Money 81 01-04-2006 06:49 PM
Buying physical Gold GTM FIRE and Money 10 01-14-2005 09:26 AM
Gold and Oil haha FIRE and Money 15 07-31-2004 10:38 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:29 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.