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Old 05-08-2010, 09:19 AM   #141
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Geez, I was thinking of leaving an order to buy a bunch of shares at a penny ... just in case. But if the orders are being "cancelled" after being filled .... that's no fun.
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Old 05-08-2010, 10:23 AM   #142
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List of all the canceled trades is here at WSJ (first is NYSE, second is NASDAQ):

Thursday's Canceled Trades: NYSE - The Wall Street Journal Online - Interactive Graphics

Thursday's Canceled Trades - The Wall Street Journal Online - Interactive Graphics
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Old 05-08-2010, 10:38 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I'm curious about the all-or-nothing. I've avoided them, afraid that I will miss being filled. I assume all the smaller orders go ahead of me. If it's a case where I'm trying to grab the little movements in bid/ask, I often find that I get filled in many small chunks. Seems I might miss that price with an all-or-nothing. Unless it moves through my price at some point.

Have you had any problems getting these orders filled? I guess you might not really know, but logic tells me I have a better chance by not specifying all-or-nothing?
-ERD50
I'm patient!

Yes, I may have to wait a while longer - sometimes hours. But sometimes I get rewarded by being taken out on a big uptick and get a nice premium. Other times, I get taken out at my limit but might have to wait a while longer until the bid moves above my limit.

That doesn't bother me at all. It will eventually happen.

No, I have never had a problem getting my orders filled - eventually.

Audrey
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:11 AM   #144
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Barry Ritholtz goes after the high frequency traders

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Its worth noting that HFT now accounts for between 50% and 70% of trading. The supposed liquidity it supplies to markets — a lame excuse of ever there was one for legalized theft to be tolerated — simply up and went away during the crash. Abelson smartly dismisses the HFT rationale by observing: “It sorrows us to report that the bare bones of what happened on Thursday is that when the going got rough, the high-frequency crowd stampeded for the exits and their vaunted pools of liquidity vanished with them.”
Blame High-Frequency Trading | The Big Picture

Wow. I had no idea that HFT comprised such a large part of the market.
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Old 05-08-2010, 12:04 PM   #145
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I'm patient!

Yes, I may have to wait a while longer - sometimes hours. But sometimes I get rewarded by being taken out on a big uptick and get a nice premium. Other times, I get taken out at my limit but might have to wait a while longer until the bid moves above my limit.

That doesn't bother me at all. It will eventually happen.

No, I have never had a problem getting my orders filled - eventually.
I think this ignores the real risk of non-execution of your orders. What if your limit price was the low point for the day/week/month/year (assuming you are buying)? Unless you up your bid price, you won't get execution on your order. Maybe not a big deal if you "KNOW" what the security is worth and you aren't willing to pay a penny more.
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Old 05-08-2010, 12:13 PM   #146
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I'm curious about the all-or-nothing. I've avoided them, afraid that I will miss being filled. I assume all the smaller orders go ahead of me. If it's a case where I'm trying to grab the little movements in bid/ask, I often find that I get filled in many small chunks. Seems I might miss that price with an all-or-nothing. Unless it moves through my price at some point.
I'm no serious trader, but I have noticed that my AON orders don't show up as the best price on the bid/ask tickers. I may but in a buy order at, say, 16.31 limit for 6 lots, yet the bid price on the ticker would stay at 16.29 for 3 lots (for example). I'm offering a better price to potential counterparties that are sellers, yet I don't show up as the best price on the ticker. I can't recall if I have seen, say, 9 lots at 16.29 (where the cheaper bid price has MORE lots than my bid offer).

This is on the ISM and OSM trades I arb back and forth. At Fidelity.

I'm curious about the rationale behind the AON restriction as well. The only reason I was doing it for certain small-ish trades what that I didn't want to pay another $8 commission if only 1 lot of my order executed.
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:44 PM   #147
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I think this ignores the real risk of non-execution of your orders. What if your limit price was the low point for the day/week/month/year (assuming you are buying)? Unless you up your bid price, you won't get execution on your order. Maybe not a big deal if you "KNOW" what the security is worth and you aren't willing to pay a penny more.
I'm generally selling. This is how I handle gradual divesting of a large position I have in long held company stock.

That might make a difference in your thinking through the scenario, if you assume over time that stocks generally appreciate.

Audrey
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:23 AM   #148
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I always use limit orders, but I tend to avoid fill or kill or All or None orders. Sometimes they have avoided me getting hit with mulitple commissions for a single trade, but I think pricing is higher on them.
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Old 05-09-2010, 05:20 PM   #149
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Been there, done that, have the...
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:13 PM   #150
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Been there, done that, have the...
Man, that was a rough 10 minutes!
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:51 PM   #151
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Oooooh! Here's a good scoop on the "market glitch". Finally something that makes sense!

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NEW YORK (TheStreet) -- The unusual trading action in Procter & Gamble(PG) stock believed to be at the center of the market's most volatile moments on Thursday is thought to have originated from Terra Nova Financial(TNFG), a Chicago-based provider of prime brokerage and clearing services, a person familiar with the situation has told TheStreet.
This firm is already in trouble with the SEC for several things right now:
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Terra Nova is apparently already under scrutiny for allegedly lax trading policies and procedures. The company, which is listed on the over-the-counter Bulletin Board under the symbol "TNFG.OB," disclosed in its Form 10-K for fiscal 2009 filed on March 30 that it received a Wells Notice on March 9 from FINRA, alerting the company of a recommendation for disciplinary action against it related to short sales occurring in the October-December 2007 timeframe.

FINRA is alleging that Terra Nova "accepted short sale orders without proper arrangements to borrow the securities" during that period, a practice known as "naked" shorting.

Also in the Form 10-K, Terra Nova disclosed its receipt of a Wells Notice in December 2009 from NYSE Regulation, saying the NYSE is investigating its conduct in four separate matters. The most recent of these is an allegation from September 2008 that a "large volume of erroneous trades" were placed by a Terra Nova client named Hsu-Tung Lee through an automated trading program.

"NYSE alleges that these trades far exceeded Lee's buying power, disrupted the market and indicate that Terra Nova failed to establish or maintain appropriate policies or procedures to prevent such erroneous orders from reaching the market," the filing states.

The other allegations, one of which dates back to January 2005, stem from similar alleged deficiencies in the firm's control policies and procedures related to short sale orders, restrictions on "wash sales and prearranged trades," and possible "spoofing" of the market by a customer who allegedly entered and then cancelled orders prior to the market's open for a two-month period in 2008.
The whole story is here: Chicago Firm Linked to P&G Trade | TheStreet.com

Yep - all you need it a broker-dealer/clearing house that pulls these stunts (or lets their customers pull these stunts), and no wonder we have horrible market action.

Now, what I can't believe is that there is only one of these "bad apples" out there.

Audrey
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Old 05-10-2010, 07:29 AM   #152
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Dow futures up 400 on euro-bail news
EU to Dump a $Trillion Dollars into Eurozone | The Big Picture
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:34 AM   #153
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And all it takes is a trillion dollar bailout!
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:49 AM   #154
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That might make a difference in your thinking through the scenario, if you assume over time that stocks generally appreciate.

Audrey
I know a lot of folks who sold long-term covered calls in Citigroup at $55 or so hoping to get taken out of their employer stock eventually and earn some extra cash along the way.

Some of those folks left eight figures on the table . . . oops.

I'm a fan of selling stuff I want to sell as soon as I've decided I want to sell it.
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:49 AM   #155
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I'll be convinced of the lasting power of the economic *and* stock market recoveries when it doesn't take massive government bailouts to pump them up.

It's feeling like a good opportunity to take some off the table for those who are skittish moving forward.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:01 AM   #156
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Although billed as a "bailout" the European move seems to me to be more of a step toward greater European integration (in this case fiscal) then anything else. Some economists have warned for a long time about the inherent weakness of Euro monetary integration without accompanying fiscal and labor market integration. Oftentimes it takes a crisis to force things that people would prefer to avoid. In this case, the Euro members had two stark choices. Embrace greater integration. Or face impending disintegration.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:04 AM   #157
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Although billed as a "bailout" the European move seems to me to be more of a step toward greater European integration (in this case fiscal) then anything else. Some economists have warned for a long time about the inherent weakness of Euro monetary integration without accompanying fiscal and labor market integration. Oftentimes it takes a crisis to force things that people would prefer to avoid. In this case, the Euro members had two stark choices. Embrace greater integration. Or face impending disintegration.
I heard it mentioned by analysts that this deal is the EU going "all in" to try to clean up the PIIGS sty and take a stand at defending both the euro and the EU overall. These things may be necessary but until all the shoes drop, one has to wonder when and if the economy will start expanding through organic growth rather than government-provided stimulus and liquidity.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:11 AM   #158
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I heard it mentioned by analysts that this deal is the EU going "all in" to try to clean up the PIIGS sty and take a stand at defending both the euro and the EU overall. These things may be necessary but until all the shoes drop, one has to wonder when and if the economy will start expanding through organic growth rather than government-provided stimulus and liquidity.
Agreed.

I've come to understand that excess liquidity can masquerade as strong fundamentals. I haven't spent enough time thinking about it to disentangle the two. And I'm not certain that there is any way to tell one from the other. What is clear, though, is that at present liquidity provided by governments and central banks is unprecedented. Which raises the risk that whatever we think the fundamentals are doing is simply a mirage.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:39 AM   #159
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Alright everybody. Nothing more to worry about. It's safe to put your money back in the stock market now. Especially EU. Uncles Ben and Jean-Claude are watching over us.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:41 AM   #160
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Although billed as a "bailout" the European move seems to me to be more of a step toward greater European integration (in this case fiscal) then anything else. Some economists have warned for a long time about the inherent weakness of Euro monetary integration without accompanying fiscal and labor market integration. Oftentimes it takes a crisis to force things that people would prefer to avoid. In this case, the Euro members had two stark choices. Embrace greater integration. Or face impending disintegration.
What a far cry from just a few short years ago, when the dollar was plummeting and all the pro-Euro folks were saying their was the "world currency of the future"..........'

The USD is far from dead..........imagine that..........
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