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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-08-2005, 07:39 PM   #21
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
I know the feeling.* How did that happen?* *
And young people NEVER see it coming. *I didn't and I suspect
others don't either. *One day you are 25 and full of piss and vinegar.
The next thing you know you are just full of it, and ahead the grave
yawns in anticipation. We will all be there soon enough, and maybe
it's better if the young don't see it. *God made the world round so that
we couldn't see too far ahead.

Jg
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-08-2005, 07:41 PM   #22
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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Originally Posted by Michael
I never suggested that they were John.* Just that detox insurance is not something that I would willingly buy if I had a choice.* It seems like an unnecessary expense to me.
Okay. I understand.

JG
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-08-2005, 07:57 PM   #23
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

Quote:
God made the world round so that we couldn't see too far ahead.
Perhaps He allows us to grow old because He does want us to think about what lies ahead:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27 KJV
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-08-2005, 08:00 PM   #24
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
One day you are 25 and full of piss and vinegar.
The next thing you know you are just full of it, and ahead the grave
yawns in anticipation.
Great googledy-moogledy, JG! Do you own a black paint franchise? For a guy only 60 years of age you are one heck of a pessimist when it comes to mortality. I'm only a couple of years behind you and I'm still full of P&V. (OK, so maybe I have to get up a lot more often at night, but so what?) I dang sure don't see a "yawning grave" ahead of me. We all know it's out there somewhere, but at 60, there should still be enough curvature of the earth to keep that b*st*rd over the horizon.

Lighten up!

REW

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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-08-2005, 08:09 PM   #25
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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Originally Posted by REWanabe
Great googledy-moogledy, JG!* Do you own a black paint franchise?* For a guy only 60 years of age you are one heck of a pessimist when it comes to mortality.* I'm only a couple of years behind you and I'm still full of P&V. (OK, so maybe I have to get up a lot more often at night, but so what?)* I dang sure don't see a "yawning grave" ahead of me.* We all know it's out there somewhere, but at 60, there should still be enough curvature of the earth to keep that b*st*rd over the horizon.

Lighten up!

REW

You're right REW. But that was a pretty good post IMHO, if a bit
on the dark side. Anyway, I will strive for a more perky approach tomorrow. Elvis has left the building..................

JG
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-08-2005, 10:37 PM   #26
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

Perhaps the sooner that corporations drop their 'pledge" to cover retirement medical care, and the matter gains status as a real national crisis, the insurance-medical complex will actually have to find customers on an individual, competitive basis, rather than group based "take it or leave it" basis.*

Here is your essay question for extra credit:

Imagine if every corporation in the US dropped medical coverage overnight.* What would be the result out there? Would it result in an open market?* Is there a premise that without the certainty of huge corporate health insurance premiums the insurance-medical complex would have to adopt or die? (Could it be that now the dying is being done mostly by the ranks of the emerging Uninsured American Peasant Class.)*Please discuss.
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-08-2005, 11:17 PM   #27
 
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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Originally Posted by LEX
Would it result in an open market?
If health benefits were dropped suddenly by all employers, you'd probably see more sick people.

I think the costs would eventually drop somewhat, but health care will never be a true open market as other markets are. The choices are too complex. Customers (patients) are often forced to make choices when ill and without the time or ability to comparison shop.

The government regulates drugs with a wink and a nod to the pharmaceutical industry, preventing true competition.
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 06:50 AM   #28
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
Perhaps He allows us to grow old because He does want us to think about what lies ahead:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:* Hebrews 9:27* KJV
Or Shakespeare.............By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once; we owe God a death and let it go which way it will, he that dies this year is quit for the next.

JG
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 07:54 AM   #29
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEX

Here is your essay question for extra credit:

Imagine if every corporation in the US dropped medical coverage overnight. What would be the result out there? Would it result in an open market? Is there a premise that without the certainty of huge corporate health insurance premiums the insurance-medical complex would have to adopt or die? (Could it be that now the dying is being done mostly by the ranks of the emerging Uninsured American Peasant Class.) Please discuss.


The analogy might be homeowner's insurance. No flood insurance unless subsidized by government. People have mold claims? Eliminate mold insurance. I would anticipate lots of exclusions unless government got involved and said policies had to cover x, y and z. There is some of this going all already, mostly on a state by state basis.

I also would anticipate different cost structure based on health so the unhealthly get priced out of the market. The question might be where the line is drawn because insurers can't cut out too many people from their pool of potential customers.



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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 12:23 PM   #30
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

The reason why I think we'll see nationalization vs status quo or universal high deductible plans is that the health care industry, both on its own 'merits' and the increasing legislation that incurs costs simply wont ever back away from the trough.

I think we'll see the ranks of the uninsured grow with the price increases, while businesses will move to the high deductible plans to cut their costs.

At some point, you'll have a sea of have-nots who only go into the emergency room when they're desperately ill, at which point the hospital has to offer at least minimal treatment for free, a group of well-to-do people who actually have coverage that pays the bills, and a gigantic majority of high deductible plan holders who wont go in unless they're very sick as they cant afford the huge out of pocket costs.

In that scenario, theres nobody paying the bills for a large medical community. No cash inflow = no business. So you either need to nationalize it or dump half the medical staff and close half the buildings.

You cant have something everyone needs at boutique prices. It just wont last.
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 01:51 PM   #31
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

I totally agree with TH the health care system canít go on as it is. The price is causing companies to cut heath care entirely or increase the cost to retirees and future retirees to the point they canít afford it. As was mentioned many people will go with out because they canít afford the cost of having the procedure. I feel that the system is totally abused by the retirees or employees who have heath insurance. They have unnecessary procedures and tests just to make 100 percent sure. The medical profession is too blame also having patients go through procedures and test to make absolutely sure nothing is wrong. I can also blame the damn tort attorneys with all the malpractice suites, which in turn gives the doctor no choice, but to run the test and thus increase the cost billed to the insurance companies. Then we all realize what happens, the cost is passed on. Yes we do need national health insurance or we will all be doomed.
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 02:25 PM   #32
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

Well, to be fair the biggest problem isnt people doing too many tests. That medical care is overly expensive in the first place is definitely one problem.

But the biggest issue is that most of the health care costs are spent in the last year of someones life. Obviously on heroic efforts that didnt work, or hey...they wouldnt have been incurred shortly before death.

My wife has plenty of stories from the hospital of keeping people who are never going to recover on machines weeks and months because the family cant do what needs to be done. People who are do badly injured that death would be a blessing suffering 'lifesaving assistance' for hours and days.

Not that this is going to change. Doctors jobs are to do whatever they can and they're not the types to admit to their limitations or not want to do whatever they can. People arent going to look at a mangled or brain dead family member and make a timely and money saving decision to stop care. Hospitals are going to bill the bejesus out of the insurance companies for every effort made.

Given that theres no way to control the mainstream or extreme costs, and the system at its size and breadth cant live as an elitist boutique, it has to be regulated. Believe me, i'm the last person to think government regulation of ANYTHING is a good idea, but I dont think its avoidable.

Just like people are mostly too dumb to save for their retirement, the health care system is too dumb to save itself from extinction.
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 03:00 PM   #33
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

Martha and Th: Great responses.
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 07:04 PM   #34
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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Or Shakespeare.............By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once; we owe God a death and let it go which way it will, he that dies this year is quit for the next.
Ah, the character Feeble, who claims to prefers death to dishonor:

By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once: we owe God a death: Iíll neíer bear a base mind: anít be my destiny, so; anít be not, so: no man is too good to serveís prince; and let it go which way it will, he that dies this year is quit for the next.
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 07:10 PM   #35
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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Originally Posted by Michael
Ah, the character Feeble, who claims to prefers death to dishonor:

By my troth, I care not; a man can die but once: we owe God a death: Iíll neíer bear a base mind: anít be my destiny, so; anít be not, so: no man is too good to serveís prince; and let it go which way it will, he that dies this year is quit for the next.
Damned fine, eh?

JG
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 07:13 PM   #36
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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Would it result in an open market?
No. *The only way to get a free market is to eliminate all *unneeded regulations. *When Thai doctors are free to open hospitals in the United States, and provide medical care without all the red tape, then you would have a free market. *They would be thrown in jail if they tried to now, because they don't have state licensces to practice medicine here.

When you can buy your Lipitor from Amazon.com without a prescription, you will have a free market. *Otherwise you will continue to have medicine so costly that people get sick from lack of medical care. *It will get worse before it gets better.
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 07:15 PM   #37
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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...fine, eh?
There are certainly worse things than death.
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 07:17 PM   #38
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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Originally Posted by Michael
There are certainly worse things than death.
Yep, and it's a very long list indeed.

JG
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 07:19 PM   #39
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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Originally Posted by Michael
No. *The only way to get a free market is to eliminate all *unneeded regulations. *When Thai doctors are free to open hospitals in the United States, and provide medical care without all the red tape, then you would have a free market. *They would be thrown in jail if they tried to now, because they don't have state licensces to practice medicine here.

When you can buy your Lipitor from Amazon.com without a prescription, you will have a free market. *Otherwise you will continue to have medicine so costly that people get sick from lack of medical care. *It will get worse before it gets better.
A "free market" ain't happening, at least not in this country. We are
going as fast as we can in the opposite direction IMHO.

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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated
Old 05-09-2005, 07:46 PM   #40
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Re: Health Care for Retirees Eliminated

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A "free market" ain't happening, at least not in this country.
I agree, and the blood of the sick who died needlessly is on the hands of the greedy who drive up costs for no good reason.
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