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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 12:06 PM   #41
 
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Re: help in planing

Let's talk about the USA where we still have the Second Amendment instead of some leftist "Big Brother"
type countries. I believe that 38 of the 50 states allow concealed carry. I also believe (although I'm too lazy to look it up) that violent crime has declined in virtually
every state that passed it. There is a well researched book "More Guns = Less Crime". I think written by a Florida college professor (pretty amazing). Anyway,
the founders of this country tried to insure we could all be armed if we chose to. The libs never stop attacking
but they haven't gained much ground lately. I'll tell you
honestly. LIberals scare me more than Osama, Iran, Syria and North Korea combined. No contest.

JG
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 12:12 PM   #42
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Re: help in planing

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Well, if you are only going to use the one variable of whether you can carry handguns in public and compare it to the murder rate then the facts say that it doesn't help and in fact makes it worse. *Look at countries that have very strict gun control laws such as Japan (or Singapore or Hong Kong) and the murder rate (and in fact overall crime rate is a fraction of any city in the US). *So, to use your uni-factor measurement we come to the conclusion that gun control does reduce murder and crime in general.
Obviously blacks commit the vast majority of murders in Maryland. I recently read that if you just count white murder statistics in the US, our murder rate would be the same or lower then the big European democracies. Also one should note that violent crime has been reduced everywhere that liberalized gun carry laws have been enacted. I get my findings from the book "More Guns Less Crime". Maybe you can remember after Florida enacted LCL crimes went up on rental cars. Thats because the criminal knew that people who drove rentals most likely would not be carrying. When the rental license plates were changed to a generic plate, crime dropped.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 12:14 PM   #43
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Re: help in planing

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A much higher percentage of obese people?
I knew you could do it! I am proud of you Sonny. Now just to be sure you aren't deliberately stokin" us, why don't you and your lady fair take a nice walk down some random street in Baltimore any night of your choice?

Remember, it is safe- they have gun control!

Mikey
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 12:15 PM   #44
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Re: help in planing

This is one of those arguments where everybody already has their minds made up, and will not be confused by the "facts". I say "facts" because what most people have here are opinions but they disguise them as facts.

You can have your own opinions.

You cannot have your own facts.

The constitution is not the be-all, end-all of everything. Its a document that put a framework in place that was to evolve, and it has.

But you cant read a little piece of it and draw your own conclusions. Well you can and a lot of people do, but thats where the problem starts.

The "right to bear arms" was specific and two-fold. Part 1 was that the US is not supposed to have a standing army. Really. The constitution says so. For a large variety of reasons including the cost and the temptation to use it. The founding fathers really wanted us to mind our own business...which is hard to fathom in todays world where we've decided that we are the arbiter of many other countries fates and directions. The first part of the right to bear arms therefore was for the public to be called up to form a militia in times of need. Can you imagine people having a bradley in their garage and an RPG or two in the closet in case we needed to call up the militia? Who gets the f-16 in their back yard?

The other reason to maintain guns in the hands of the public was to assure the people could overthrow the government should it become onerous and non representative of the people.

Well, we have a standing army, and its a crime punishable by death to try to overthrow the government. So much for that little part of the constitution. There is absolutely nothing else in the constitution with regards to gun ownership that you can hang your hat on.

So unless you're planning on joining the "militia" or overthrowing the government, you technically have no constitutionally protected right to bear arms.

As far as the rest of it, in countries where broad ownership of guns by the public has never been allowed, there are very few gun deaths (obviously). With a limit on the ability of anyone to harm anyone with very little skill, there is also a lot less violent crime. So the "I need my gun to protect myself, to even the odds" argument doesnt wash.

Our "gun control" here has failed to work, as it has in many other countries, simply because it was ineffective in the first place, and everybody already has ready access to guns with or without the "controls". If you do something that you know isnt going to work and then declare that the effort is not worthwhile because it didnt work, thats not particularly decisive.

As far as the "protecting myself" argument...very few people actually successfully defend themselves with a firearm and/or prevent a crime. The few instances where it does happen are widely publicized. You are far more likely to be killed or have a family member be killed by your gun than you are trying to protect yourself with it. The other humorous and quite true statistic is that the majority of people who face an intruder in their home with a firearm have emptied the gun from a distance of less than 8 feet without even hitting the intruder. Bet thats a fun experience, you with an empty gun and some guy with a load of crap in his underwear.

And no, I'm not a liberal or a demo. I've voted 100% republican, although I frankly do not like what the republican party has become. Its not a party of conservatives who want to support business, limit spending and taxation and keep our noses out of other countries business...which is what being a conservative used to be about. Its a bunch of religious whackos, gun nuts and anti-abortionists. Guess what...none of those were factors in the republican party 50 years ago and prior. Its just about all the party IS about today.

I also dont "hate guns". They have a purpose and many valid uses. I used to teach marksmanship and gun handling to teenagers when I was a camp counsellor many, many years ago.

Thats what I'm not. What I am is a reasonably intellgent person who reads and thinks for himself.

And holy cow are we way off topic on this thread... :P
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 12:26 PM   #45
 
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Re: help in planing

What's really funny is that the Neocons believe that liberals don't like guns!

I have owned plenty of guns in my time. I used to hunt a lot also. I also know that the only thing that threatens hunters is a lack of clean air, water and good habitat for wildlife. Not Gun Control!

I have nothing against guns and most liberals don't either. Being a liberal is mostly about believing in freedom.

The GOP just tells you guys that crap, so they can get elected. - And you buy it! - I'm not against guns!

So would you get off the Gun thing? No one is going to take them away.

They are trying to take away your Social Security though, and that is what I be focused on.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 01:03 PM   #46
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Re: help in planing

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Obviously blacks commit the vast majority of murders in Maryland.
Why is that obvious? *Is it obvious that they would based on their race? *You're not arguing that the crimes are committed because they are black, are you?

Quote:
I recently read that if you just count white murder statistics in the US, our murder rate would be the same or lower then the big European democracies.
Did you know that there is a correlation between the shoe size of children and their reading ability? *Of course there isn't a direct causal link but there is a "hidden" variable. *I will suggest that the link between crime and "race" is actually one of crime and poverty. *If you eliminate those at the bottom of the economic ladder (particularly when the disparity in incomes is enormous) that you will skew your statistics in a way that makes you feel warm and fuzzy.

Of course that only counts the crime stats that you want to hear. *It doesn't include the large number of white collar crimes that go without punishment. *It doesn't account for the tendency of the US justice system to look the other way for crimes committed by those who are not a minority (eg. see http://early-retirement.org/cgi-bin/...5087;start=171). *It doesn't account for the fact that those at the bottom of the economic system have fewer resources to defend themselves in the justice system and are more likely to be convicted.

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Also one should note that violent crime has been reduced everywhere that liberalized gun carry laws have been enacted.
Actually, violent crime rates have been dropping as the percentage of the male population between 15 and 30 has been dropping.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 01:47 PM   #47
 
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Re: help in planing

"White collar crime" is an oxymoron.

Now, let's take Martha Stewart.
She did what is done EVERY DAY, millions of time in total.
Who cares? The government and the prosecutors.
Nobody else. This will continue to expand until all
citizens are guilty of crimes. Even you. At that point
it only matters who the authorities choose to come after.

If I ran for office, my platform would include repeal of
The Emancipation Proclamation. I admire LIncoln, but
that was a big mistake.

JG
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 01:54 PM   #48
 
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Re: help in planing

Not going to take our guns away?
Tell it to the people that live in Washington dc, Massachusetts, new York, parts of California,and other places that the liberals have strong control, in dc it is a crime to posses, own, have, any gun, in some of the liberal places it is a crime to own a bb gun. don't even try to tell me that liberals don't want an end to gun ownership. bull crap.
as far as guns make society a more dangerous place, well let me tell you this why is it that in dc where you cant own a gun, gun crime is very high by criminals, but where gun's are prevalent, in Virginia, crime is far less? the libs say dc has high crime because the guns are brought in from places like Virginia, but Virginia has low crime. go figure, Studies indicate that fire arms are used more than 2 million times a year for personal protection, and that the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances. John the bood you refer to is more guns less crime by john R. Lott JR.
He is not a gun nut, but found that when guns are prevalent crime is reduced. I can testify to this, when I lived in Florida, rape went through the roof in Jacksonville, women started to buy hand guns in droves. the local police dept. started a campaign to help by training the women to shoot. Guess what, the rapes dropped 80%, I guess that the perps, did not want a vasectomy with a .38,
And do any of you remember the shootings in fla. involving the tourists? I was in fla. at the time, it was just after the passing of the ccw shall issue. the perps did not want to rob Floridian, they might get a "cap in they ass" so it was safer to hit some mark from Germany or England. they wont have guns.
And as far as crime in places that have curbed gun ownership, the media they ignore real news, such as the tragically instructive stories unfolding in England and Australia, where recently disarmed citizens are being terrorized by violent criminals at rates exceeding ours.
In England a man was recently impression for shooting a burglar for robbing him in his own home at knife point.
this is the road that liberal will take us down, they lie at every turn, try to make people fear that rep's will steal social security, all while letting more Arabs into this county, and slashing the military. liberals? No thanks I say. I will put up with the religious right, who I don't much care for, long before I will put up with a liberal, cutthroat, you say clean air, the air water and land are better today than in any other time in history. there are more deer, fish, trees today than when Columbus landed. and no thanks to liberals, liberals are not conservationists. liberals are the ones in the woods breaking sticks so you cant get a shot at that buck, they are the ones throwing stones in your stream hole to scare that cutthroat, the next time you run into a peta member cut, remember he votes with you, and if we don't stop them, your rights will be lost, because the left [not all but a goodly portion] don't believe in fishing.
so cut, I am fighting for your rights along with my own. no no don't thank me, its a pleasure.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 01:55 PM   #49
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Re: help in planing

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What's really funny is that the Neocons believe that liberals don't like guns!

I have owned plenty of guns in my time. I used to hunt a lot also. I also know that the only thing that threatens hunters is a lack of clean air, water and good habitat for wildlife. Not Gun Control!

I have nothing against guns and most liberals don't either. Being a liberal is mostly about believing in freedom.
You said it! I usually stay out of poltical discussions because I find the whole "liberals hate America" argument both tiresome and laughable these days.

I consider myself fairly liberal, and my husband is as liberal as they come on most issues (lifetime ACLU member, supports social welfare programs, worked for environmental groups in college, etc, etc). We go shooting often and own several guns. In fact the spouse has carried a pistol and an M16 regularly for years, and right now on a daily basis while on patrol in the Sunni Triangle. His love of guns was a factor in his career choice, but it still hasn't led him to vote Republican. I don't get the connection either Cut-Throat, but someone's propaganda machine sure is good.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 02:16 PM   #50
 
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Re: help in planing

Well Flowgirl, if they get their news from the Rush Limbaugh show, you don't have to wonder where the warped reasoning comes from
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 02:17 PM   #51
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Re: help in planing

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In England a man was recently impression for shooting a burglar for robbing him in his own home at knife point.
I will assume that you meant "imprisoned". *The Tony Martin story has been floating around the US neocon press lately and they've conveniently left out most of the details but then I wouldn't expect anything less. *In that case the home owner:

1) had had his firearms license revoked because he had been shooting at random passing cars
2) possesed a firearm that was illegal under British law (not all are but certain kinds are just like in the US)
3) he shot the intruder in the back outside his home

If you'd like more facts than fiction you could look at this - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...466593,00.html
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 02:51 PM   #52
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Re: help in planing

As I said...everyone already knows their opinions are facts, their facts are perfect, and their minds are already made up...and not to be confused by any actual facts that contradict their existing facts.

Better point is that it makes no difference. Theres no way to solve this little problem in this country.

We have the highest rates of murder and violent crimes on earth. Smart people know why. How it happened is apparent. Now we get to live with the results.

But then again, when your president tells you you're safer and freer when you're a lot less of both, its easy to see where some folks can get confused.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 03:42 PM   #53
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Re: help in planing

Get Over it! No right or wrong here....Remember, everybody's got one.

PEACE
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 03:58 PM   #54
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Re: help in planing

Flowgirl I agree with you that not all liberal citizens are for gun control. However almost all democratic political office holders are. The more liberal the state the more gun control. There is my bone of contention.

Quote:
As far as the "protecting myself" argument...very few people actually successfully defend themselves with a firearm and/or prevent a crime. *The few instances where it does happen are widely publicized. *You are far more likely to be killed or have a family member be killed by your gun than you are trying to protect yourself with it.
This is simply untrue. The press is always talking about all the children who are killed with handguns. One would think that having a gun in the house is more dangerous then not having one. In fact what the press fails to mention is that almost all of those deaths are among the 14-17 age group, and are largly drug related. *More children drown in a bucket of water a year then are killed by accidental handgun shotings.

While it is true that firearms are associated with approximately 30,000 deaths; the majority of them suicides; in the U.S. annually, firearms are used far more often to save lives and protect property. Award-winning survey research demonstrates that guns are used as often as 2.5 million times a year in the U.S. for protection. This is three to five times as often as they are misused by criminals.



Quote:
I will suggest that the link between crime and "race" is actually one of crime and poverty. *If you eliminate those at the bottom of the economic ladder (particularly when the disparity in incomes is enormous) that you will skew your statistics in a way that makes you feel warm and fuzzy.
Hyperborea this is a tricky anology. On the one hand in Maryland the vast majority of blacks are middle class and up. These people are for the most part lawabiding.
In Baltimore there is a certain bravado among the dealers and the attics. I cannot speak for other metro centers, but I assume that this is a universal truth. Right now in Baltimore we have a case of an upstanding citizen who was going to be a witness in a drug related murder. Guess what happened? The house was torched and the whole family perished. This is just one of many retaliations against people who try to change the system. We even have a dvd going around town, put out by some dealers, that lays down the law of the street to all who squeal.
Society glorifies these scum. We have gangster rap, the bling bling, the Wire, hollywood, NAACP, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton ect....
I an not a racist, but the truth is that black poor commit more violent crime then white poor. I have seen the statistics.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 04:14 PM   #55
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Re: help in planing

We're experiencing "statistical drift". That occurs when one looks at statistics that have been crafted by someone to tell a story and that story is appealing to the reader.

From the implausible children drowning in buckets of water to the claim that most of the "child deaths" are "black criminals".

I've seen the stats. And the ones produced by the gun haters. And the ones produced by those who favor guns. They dont look anything alike. It does take bit of effort to look at the methodologies and mitigations to see how the data is being spun.

But you have to want to do that.

For example, the federal government (Center for Disease Control's National Center for Health division) reports that approximately 25 children die of accidental drownings in buckets each year.

They also report the average number of children under the age of 13 who die accidentally and unintended from gunshots is 214.

Roughly 87 children per year under 5 are killed accidentall by a handgun in their own homes.

One hundred and thirty four were murdered intentionally by a gun before their tenth birthday.

And by the way, more than half of all children killed by a gun that are under 19 are white. In 2002, 1639 white children under 19 were killed, while only 1112 black children under 19 were killed.

These stats from a federal agency thats been under the direction of pro-gun politicians for 4+ years now.

More children do drown in buckets than asian/pacific island children killed by guns. Barely.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 04:32 PM   #56
 
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Re: help in planing

FORMAL NAME INFORMAL NAME % ALL DEATHS
(1) Diseases of the heart heart attack (mainly) 28.5%
(2) Malignant neoplasms cancer 22.8%
(3) Cerebrovascular disease stroke 6.7%
(4) Chronic lower respiratory disease emphysema, chronic bronchitis 5.1%
(5) Unintentional injuries accidents 4.4%
(6) Diabetes mellitus diabetes 3.0%
(7) Influenza and pneumonia flu & pneumonia 2.7%
(8) Alzheimer's Disease Alzheimer's senility 2.4%
(9) Nephritis and Nephrosis kidney disease 1.7%
(10) Septicemia systemic infection 1.4%
(11) Intentional self-harm suicide 1.3%
(12) Chronic Liver/Cirrhosis liver disease 1.1%
(13) Essential Hypertension high blood pressure 0.8%
(14) Assault homicide 0.7%
(15) All other causes other 17.4%

This is a statistic chart of causes of death in the usa, so we see that homicide, is very very small, and other causes like kennedys car is even less, for those that dont remember that he drowned his girlfriend and walked around for 3 houres "hickop" trying to figure out how to get to his next 3some. and as for the girl with the hubby that is in the millitary I take it and liberal? he is in the minority. most millitary personel are conservitive.
the dems try to gut the millitary every chance they get.
It is also funny how the libs throw insults but never a counter ideal. maybe because they dont have any.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 04:33 PM   #57
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Re: help in planing

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And by the way, more than half of all children killed by a gun that are under 19 are white. *In 2002, 1639 white children under 19 were killed, while only 1112 black children under 19 were killed.
*
Yes but blacks are only 11 percent of the population. So if you are a black "child" you are about 5 times more likely to be killed by a gun
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Old 02-24-2005, 04:37 PM   #58
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Re: help in planing

You guys scare the sh*t out of me!

ed teach would be jailed in Canada.
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Old 02-24-2005, 04:59 PM   #59
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Re: help in planing

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Yes but blacks are only 11 percent of the population. So if you are a black "child" you are about 5 times more likely to be killed by a gun
Well, according the US census blacks make up 13% of the US population and with 1112 child gun deaths that is 85.5 per percent of the US population.

Whites make up 75% of the US population and with 1639 child gun deaths that is 21.8 per percent of the US population.

What is the ratio of black child gun deaths to white child gun deaths as a percent of the population? *That's 85.5/21.8 = 3.9.

Hmmm, what's the poverty ratio for blacks compared to whites in the US? *Well for blacks the poverty ratio is 24.8% and for whites it is 8.2%. *That becomes 24.8 / 8.2 = 3.02. *Well, those two look remarkably similar. *I'll stand by by suggestion that the "hidden" variable for the difference between the "races" in the US is poverty.
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Re: help in planing
Old 02-24-2005, 05:33 PM   #60
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Re: help in planing

I thought we were talking about early retirement planning - and then we drifted off into nice talk about the Broadway show I was planning on attending. Then we went into guns, and next liberals vs. conservatives and now Canada vs. the U.S.

At least with regard to Canada, we won't be talking about guns - nobody has any.

What, exactly, does this have to do with ER?

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