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Old 06-18-2017, 06:40 AM   #41
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Does someone have too much time on their hands?

Oh, never mind, lots of retired folks hang out here!
Ya, really.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:54 AM   #42
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.... If you truly care about those less fortunate, you would, at least to some extent, put their voices first, use your privilege to elevate their perspectives, and prioritize what they say they need rather than what you deign to bestow on them.
If they are not smart or motivated enough to have earned their way into the top 20%, what makes us think that they know what they need? If they say that they need materials or instruction to learn how to fish then fine, but if they say that they just need fish, then no.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:04 AM   #43
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Insisting that it is only the criteria that you deign to acknowledge that indicates whether or not someone else, given their circumstances, should enjoy the same success you did is yet another reflection of privilege being Lorded over those less fortunate. A lack of appreciation for how things are different for other people is precisely what perpetuates the structural problems within society.

The real shame of it is that this understanding probably would have reached more Americans if the way it was being delivered was not so political. This is a moral issue and if any institutions in the United States have failed our society it is without a doubt those institutions that formed our moral Center. The ascendancy of the reactionary religious right and it's focus on it's on Dogma rather than on fostering a better life for all, combined with the failure of even moderate religious institutions to be the literal binding of our society, abrogating their responsibility to bring us together, have helped bring about and foster the situation we're in now. You can see little bits and pieces here and there where they're trying to now yell through the dining, "Wait wait wait! Jesus was all about the poor!" But it's just noise in the ears of many.

And it sure doesn't help that now the strongest voices are trying to use guilt and recrimination to get the message across. That's yet another bad bad idea. (And the topic of my message to the congregation this morning incidentally...)
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:04 AM   #44
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Well ok. Thought a little more about this issue. Didn't read the article. If you step back a bit and ignore all the "Horatio Alger" stories, there is indeed an issue here. Our society is getting much more bifurcated. The mega-rich are indeed getting more powerful and claiming a larger share of total wealth. Maybe they deserve (whatever that means) it, but even if they did, having so much wealth and power concentrated in so few, can't be good in the long run.

Solution? Get private money out of politics and stop gerrymandering. Rest of the developed countries have figured this out. Once you do that things should improve, eventually.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:06 AM   #45
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Solution? Get private money out of politics and stop gerrymandering.
That would be a great start.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:29 AM   #46
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This is a common misconception. Giving people what you deign to give them is Lording over them. That's not to say it isn't generous, or that you should stop it, but considering it sufficiently beneficent is a self-deception. Having been brought up in a society which is "structurally amiss" as outlined above, it is not uncommon for people to make that mistake.

If you truly care about those less fortunate, you would, at least to some extent, put their voices first, use your privilege to elevate their perspectives, and prioritize what they say they need rather than what you deign to bestow on them.
What a bunch of BS. All societies, from ant to human are "structurally amiss" by your definition. Life is competitive, all the way up the evolutionary ladder. If you want to succeed, get off your butt and work at it.

When I hear this nonsense, I look to the immigrants to demonstrate how things really work. A lot of people from Vietnam moved here, beginning in the early to mid 1980's. They came from relocation camps with nothing but the shirts on their backs. They largely did not speak the language. They moved into the poorest neighborhoods, took some charitable and public assistance, and went to work. They took crap jobs, worked two of them in some cases, and everyone worked. No one whined about being disadvantaged. They simply moved forward.

Today, these folks and their children and grandchildren own houses and other properties, run businesses, hold professional positions, and participate in politics. Starting from nothing and with as many or more disadvantages than most people born here, they succeeded. And they did it in 30 years.

Instead of instilling this attitude in people, starting at home and moving through the schools, we have allowed a large underclass to develop. Every excuse is made for these folks, and nothing is done to change their situation. The value of work and participation in our society has diminished to nothing, and no one says or does anything to change this, for fear of the backlash. We have to import labor, which further undermines the incentive to work.

If you rely on me to eat and have a place to live, I should have some say over what you do. If you want to sit around all day on the street partying with your friends, I should not have to support that. There should be consequences for behavior that is destructive. Is that "lording it over you?" Yep. It's social parenting of people that didn't get the message the first time around.

We need to distinguish between the truly needy and incapable, who deserve our support, and people that need to participate, and who need direction and clearly stated incentives to do so. If we don't, we will be overwhelmed by their failure and our society will be at risk of disintegrating.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:31 AM   #47
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Insisting that it is only the criteria that you deign to acknowledge that indicates whether or not someone else, given their circumstances, should enjoy the same success you did is yet another reflection of privilege being Lorded over those less fortunate. A lack of appreciation for how things are different for other people is precisely what perpetuates the structural problems within society.

The real shame of it is that this understanding probably would have reached more Americans if the way it was being delivered was not so political. This is a moral issue and if any institutions in the United States have failed our society it is without a doubt those institutions that formed our moral Center. The ascendancy of the reactionary religious right and it's focus on it's on Dogma rather than on fostering a better life for all, combined with the failure of even moderate religious institutions to be the literal binding of our society, abrogating their responsibility to bring us together, have helped bring about and foster the situation we're in now. You can see little bits and pieces here and there where they're trying to now yell through the dining, "Wait wait wait! Jesus was all about the poor!" But it's just noise in the ears of many.

And it sure doesn't help that now the strongest voices are trying to use guilt and recrimination to get the message across. That's yet another bad bad idea. (And the topic of my message to the congregation this morning incidentally...)
My parents grew up picking cotton in upstate South Carolina, and working in textile mills, living in a 1000 sq ft mill house. My Dad went off to war, spent 22 years in the military as an enlisted guy, while my Mom worked while he was at sea 6 months out of the year, practically every year. They taught me to work, so i started working at 14 in a local bakery, mowed grass, and studied hard in school. They scraped and put me through college (I worked and helped). I now earn an income (along with my wife) that probably puts me in the 2-3%. I don't need YOU telling ME what I should do to help others. THEY can do what I did and help themselves. BTW, I DO help others, and YES, I DECIDE HOW THAT HELP COMES. That's part of the payment for my help.

Case in point, our VERY GREAT Senator in SC, Tim Scott (AA) went to school with me. He was the product of a broken home, single mother, and was even lower in the socio-economic scale, yet he is now part of the Gov't/Leadership in the best country in the world. HE doesn't need you telling HIM that he needs something taken from others so that HE could be successful either. Just ask him...
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:32 AM   #48
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What a bunch of BS.
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Asked and answered above. A lack of appreciation for how things are different for other people is precisely what perpetuates the structural problems within society.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:35 AM   #49
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Problem is in the US that 80% will believe anything that is posted, tweeted or said by any of their peer group. The amount of energy that is spent believing piffle could be better used in making a concerted effort to become part of the 20%.

This does not include the really misfortunate of our society who through no fault of their own have ended up there. They genuinely need our help.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:38 AM   #50
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Problem is in the US that 80% will believe anything that is posted, tweeted or said by any of their peer group. The amount of energy that is spent believing piffle could be better used in making a concerted effort to become part of the 20%.

This does not include the really misfortunate of our society who through no fault of their own have ended up there. They genuinely need our help.
Agreed. There's really no context for discussion at this point, since the resistance to understanding something other than what one experiences themselves is so high.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:38 AM   #51
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Wow. Am sitting down with a big bowl of popcorn. Hope Porky is sleeping in this morning.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:40 AM   #52
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Bret Stephens: Only Mass Deportation Can Save America


This article makes a good point about entitlement and generational hand outs....it is NOT what the title may suggest...
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:41 AM   #53
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Wow. Am sitting down with a big bowl of popcorn. Hope Porky is sleeping in this morning.
I've been very surprised thus far! It seemed a good discussion in the beginning.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:18 AM   #54
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Thanks folks, this thread has now run its course.

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