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Old 03-28-2008, 06:29 PM   #21
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Sure they can (and should) be criminally charged with vandalism and animal cruelty. But banks make business decisions, not moral ones.
So called banks did make a bad business decision when they, assuming house prices would continue in a bubble forever, made the bad loans.

Now the business decisions have to do with how to handle the large number of foreclosures that are coming. It's a costly process, even without any sort of vandalism to their property. There is no question in my mind that the lenders would like a bailout and they will get some relief at the tax payer expense.
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Old 03-28-2008, 06:59 PM   #22
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There is no question in my mind that the lenders would like a bailout ..
So do the borrowers.
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Old 03-28-2008, 07:34 PM   #23
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A lot, surprisingly. The police charge the vandals and a court date is set:

That's when the bank's expenses begin, because they have to pay someone to come to court and prove that the bank owns the property, and did so on the date(s) that the vandalism occurred, that the bank did not authorize the people to be in the house, that the occupants weren't allowed to take anything, establish exactly when the house was last known to be in good condition (which may be impossible), get estimates of the exact dollar amounts of damage to establish felony or misdemeanor, and so on. The level of detail required is exacting. No mistakes, no matter how small, are allowed because that throws into question everything else that is presented as evidence, at least if the defense attorney has any more sense than a box of rocks.

There will likely be four to eight or more court appearances for the bank employee(s) perhaps more if the defendants hire an attorney.

This to prove the charges beyond all reasonable doubt, the standard of proof in criminal court.

All this, and there's no guarantee that the bank will get back a nickel of the damages or restitution for their consequential losses. So the sound business decision may be to eat the vandalism losses, forego prosecution and get on with their primary business.

Welcome to the criminal justice system, brought to you courtesy of the United States Constitution.
I still don't see how that would cost more than $10k or whatever number you wanna pick as the decrease in value of the house due to vandalism. Wouldn't the cops do a lot of the leg work? If my truck gets vandalized, I don't hire people to file the report. The insurance co. gives me a free estimate, etc. Not enough cops for this type of work?

Good thing I don't run a bank then, I guess. Sorry, I'm an engineer who just likes to know how everything actually works.

-CC
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Old 03-28-2008, 07:45 PM   #24
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Animal abandonment happens all the time in our society and no one is charged, much less convicted. It says a lot about a society that would tolerate without reprecussion the abandonment of pets in a house to slowly starve to death. Those former home/pet owners should be prosecuted.
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:12 PM   #25
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Animal abandonment happens all the time in our society and no one is charged, much less convicted. It says a lot about a society that would tolerate without reprecussion the abandonment of pets in a house to slowly starve to death. Those former home/pet owners should be prosecuted.
Local TV (WHIO) had a report on property clean up companies finding abandoned animals in foreclosures. If you can't take care of the animal, at the very least call the authorities before you cut and run.
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:31 PM   #26
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So called banks did make a bad business decision when they, assuming house prices would continue in a bubble forever, made the bad loans.
The banks knew the high likelihood of these kinds of problems, but figured the government would bail them out with your tax money.

What do YOU think?
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:44 PM   #27
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Local TV (WHIO) had a report on property clean up companies finding abandoned animals in foreclosures. If you can't take care of the animal, at the very least call the authorities before you cut and run.
This is despicable. How do people live with themselves after doing this?
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:21 PM   #28
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The banks knew the high likelihood of these kinds of problems, but figured the government would bail them out with your tax money.

What do YOU think?
Wasn't certain members in Congress pushing for easier lending standards so everyone could be in a house? Well they got what they wanted for a little while.
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Old 03-29-2008, 03:29 AM   #29
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Those people that left pets in the homes should be prosecuted. There are laws that could be used.

They deserve a little jail time for it.
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Old 03-29-2008, 12:43 PM   #30
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I still don't see how that would cost more than $10k or whatever number you wanna pick as the decrease in value of the house due to vandalism. Wouldn't the cops do a lot of the leg work? If my truck gets vandalized, I don't hire people to file the report. The insurance co. gives me a free estimate, etc. Not enough cops for this type of work?

Good thing I don't run a bank then, I guess. Sorry, I'm an engineer who just likes to know how everything actually works.

-CC
There may not be enough cops to do the work in that area, but that's probably not the problem. The bank MUST be willing to send representatives to court. The constitutional issue is that the State (prosecutor) has be able to put a warm body on the witness stand to testify as to every fact that is offered into evidence, deriving from the defendant's right to question his accusers. And the first fact that the state has to prove is that a crime was committed, and the owner of the property is the only entity who can testify to that.

Businesses, especially smaller ones, frequently decide that their path of least resistance is to accept their losses and get on with things rather than deal with the schedule interruptions and time investment that a trial involves. In business time=money.

When I was doing online fraud investigations and received a complaint from someone in say, Nevada, my first question to them was "Are you willing to travel to Maryland for court?" If the answer was "no" that stopped it right there. Why would I spend days or even weeks of my time (paid for by the taxpayers) investigating an offense knowing that it had no prayer of being successfully prosecuted? Same thing with the banks and vandalized houses.

A lot of times people are hopping mad about being a crime victim, but when they find out THEY have to make some effort at prosecution they lose interest quickly. All they have to do is take the time to come to court but they don't want to be bothered, so that says a lot about how concerned they really are.
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Old 03-29-2008, 12:48 PM   #31
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Ahh, thanks for the explanation, Walt.

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Old 03-29-2008, 08:41 PM   #32
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Animal abandonment happens all the time in our society and no one is charged, much less convicted. It says a lot about a society that would tolerate without reprecussion the abandonment of pets in a house to slowly starve to death. Those former home/pet owners should be prosecuted.
the majority of the world's population treats their children a lot worse, so this isn't that bad
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Old 03-29-2008, 09:06 PM   #33
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I showed a house a couple of days ago, as a realtor representing a buyer. It was only 2 years old but quite sad. Besides the usual damages, someone even broke part of the wall and took out the copper pipes behind the wall. They probably sold it for $50 while it costs $20,000 to reinstall.
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Old 03-30-2008, 05:45 AM   #34
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There may not be enough cops to do the work in that area, but that's probably not the problem. The bank MUST be willing to send representatives to court. The constitutional issue is that the State (prosecutor) has be able to put a warm body on the witness stand to testify as to every fact that is offered into evidence, deriving from the defendant's right to question his accusers. And the first fact that the state has to prove is that a crime was committed, and the owner of the property is the only entity who can testify to that.
Black list them for future loans! They present a High risk! That will make them responsible for their actions... If the house was damaged... no matter how or who... You are on the list.

Banks and Mortgage lenders should build a list of the damaged homes and refuse to lend to these people money in the future (say 20 years)... they pose a high risk. Obviously a high interest rate does not mitigate the risk. Or if a loan were to be granted... require them to hold PMI until they have 50% equity in the home or pay 30 to 50% down. Plus, Banks providing HELOCS and Seconds should be wary and mitigate the risk.
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Old 03-30-2008, 07:51 AM   #35
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Homeowners in Las Vegas are doing major vandalism to their homes after the banks foreclose and eviction notices are delivered. They even remove major appliances from the walls and then advertise them in the newspaper to get the highest price. The worst crime is when they vacate the premises and then lock their dogs or cats in to do further damage to the property while showing no sympathy at all for the innocent animals. Banks are now paying the tenants anywhere from $300 to $2,800 to leave their house peacefully without destroying it first. It seems that some consumers have lost any sense of morality. Financial institutions rarely attempt to have the former homeowners prosecuted because it's simply too much trouble. With 1.9% of houses now in foreclosure in Las Vegas, banks are increasingly paying the piper for succumbing to such liberal standards on subprime loans in their greedy quest to increase profits.

Buyers' Revenge: Trash the House After Foreclosure - WSJ.com

I have always said Humans are well animals! Disgusting idiots 98% of the population.
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Old 03-30-2008, 08:19 AM   #36
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I have always said Humans are well animals!
Odd. I don't know any humans who live in a well.
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Old 03-30-2008, 08:23 AM   #37
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Odd. I don't know any humans who live in a well.
It's not a well till you hit water, but a lot have dug themselves in pretty deep.
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Old 03-30-2008, 09:02 AM   #38
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The way I had this explained to me in 1978 (when looking for our first home, in San Diego) is as follows.

The reason you can expect considerable vandalism in a foreclosed home, is the inherent dispute between the former owners and the mortgage company. The former owners feel like the mortgage company/bank didn't give them enough slack so that they could keep the home. Otherwise, they would have to blame themselves and most people just don't. So, knowing that the home is going to the mortgage company/bank, whom they think caused the dispute in order to "steal" their home, they vandalize.

This is one reason why foreclosed homes are often a bit cheaper than other homes on the market. When you buy such a home, you should expect both visible (feces spread about, broken windows) and non-visible (concrete in the drains, etc) vandalism that you have to repair before the home is habitable.
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Old 03-30-2008, 09:06 AM   #39
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When you buy such a home, you should expect both visible (feces spread about, broken windows) and non-visible (concrete in the drains, etc) vandalism...
My particular 'favorite' was a frozen chicken stuffed waaay back in the AC ducting.
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Old 03-30-2008, 09:54 AM   #40
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My particular 'favorite' was a frozen chicken stuffed waaay back in the AC ducting.
ROFL!!!! The one that sticks in my mind is the foreclosure that we looked at in El Cajon in 1978. It had a 5'x7' by 4' deep hole through the hardwood floor and subfloor in the living room, courtesy of the former owners (a motorcycle/drug gang, according to the neighbors).
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