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Old 01-23-2011, 04:27 PM   #81
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+1, amazing isn't it. I use the same calc to talk myself out of purchases, even small ones like your example.

I sold our boat last month after 21 years as a boat owner. In retrospect it was crazy when I think of what it cost us, no matter how much we enjoyed it. We could "afford it," but it wasn't worth it...
I haven't really talked myself out of it completely. I consulted my tech advisor this morning after church, to find out if broadband internet could completely replace my current combination of landline telephone plus dial-up internet access. She says yes, it would. If I can whittle the increase in overall utilities budget to $10 or $15 a month that'd be a whole different story. So if it turns out DSL is available, or electricity and water cost less out there than here in town....iPad, here I come! Maybe I'll get it for myself as a retirement present.
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:37 PM   #82
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... the two things I want the most are a computer with broadband and pets.
Sorry to say that computers don't come with pets.
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:43 PM   #83
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Sorry to say that computers don't come with pets.
How about a pet mouse?
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:51 PM   #84
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Did GeoffC, leave the building and return to Boggleheads?
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:00 PM   #85
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+1, amazing isn't it. I use the same calc to talk myself out of purchases, even small ones like your example.

I sold our boat last month after 21 years as a boat owner. In retrospect it was crazy when I think of what it cost us, no matter how much we enjoyed it. We could "afford it," but it wasn't worth it...
I had a 20 ft Party Boat (pontoon) on the lake. Ms G and I would try to figure out how many times we had to out on it($ per cruise) for the fun payback. I was just lucky it was electric, otherwise I would have to figure fuel use too.

We threw it in the deal went we sold the home, the canoe went on craigslist.
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:17 PM   #86
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Whoever came up with "frugality without deprivation" a few pages back nailed it for me... DW and I are 38 and we have solid incomes but certainly not spectacular... yet we are able to save 4k to 5k per month and we want for absolutely nothing... our early retirement plans are not dependant on market performance because of this lifestyle... it just makes so much sense to us.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:17 PM   #87
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Sorry to say that computers don't come with pets.
It is not often that I LOL truly out loud, but I did this time.
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:22 PM   #88
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Whoever came up with "frugality without deprivation" a few pages back nailed it for me... DW and I are 38 and we have solid incomes but certainly not spectacular... yet we are able to save 4k to 5k per month and we want for absolutely nothing... our early retirement plans are not dependant on market performance because of this lifestyle... it just makes so much sense to us.
You're welcome.

I still have trouble figuring out where the line is myself.

Frugal living is not deprivation | Military Retirement & Financial Independence
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Once more--Thanks for the thoughts
Old 01-24-2011, 08:03 AM   #89
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Once more--Thanks for the thoughts

Hi all:

No, I have not decamped...I was off skiing with my wife and kids this weekend. I returned last night and checked this thread as I was reconnecting with the world. Then I decided to spend some time thinking about all of the responses.

Dex asked me to further articulate my thoughts as these might perhaps form some foundation for a discussion and I am happy to do so. Before that, I wanted to throw out a few observations about the responses so far. First, there are a lot of responses that are thoughtful and I appreciate that. Second, there are responses that are sarcastic and just short of being antagonistic and I don't really get that. If you don't like a thread / discussion / topic, why would anyone want to post sarcastic or dismissive responses? Anyway, be that as it may....

There seem to be quite a few common themes emerging and I appreciate the thoughts. I am going to start a new post to answer Dex's question...
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:24 AM   #90
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Geoff- I would say this has been one of the more civilized threads I have read recently. Other than the waste of time on the equations, etc. Many good ideas presented
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My thoughts on FI
Old 01-24-2011, 08:26 AM   #91
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My thoughts on FI

I started this thread to engage this community on their thoughts on what LBYM means so see if there was a common base of thinking and/or whether there might be some metrics that provide common ground. Dex asked me to provide more of my ideas / thinking, so here goes.

I think that the best term that I have encountered to describe my philosophy is Financial Integrity (coined by Joe Dominguez). I think that the goal is find a healthy way to relate to the role of money in your life. There are many ways to do this. Personally, my goal is not so much about retiring early as feeling that I get to do work that I really value and enjoy and that I am well compensated for that effort. It is also very important to me to be able to vary the level and intensity of work, depending on what else is going on in my life. My ideal situation is one in which my expenditures, my choice work, and my long-term plans all go together.

On the consumption front, I am with a number of the posters who look at how an expenditure costs them some future choice. An expensive car in your working years can easily cost you a year or more of future paid-for living. I can calculate these things explicitly and after a while it just become second nature.

I am philosophically against taking on any kind of consumer debt with the exception of a mortgage, once you are established in life. College debt makes sense when necessary. For people just out of school, car loans and such can be necessary. Also, there are always contingencies, emergencies, etc. As my wife and I say, there are two sides to the compunding curve and you want to be on right one (e.g. compounding debt or compounding net worth). I believe that we need stronger laws against usury.

There is a point of diminishing return to consumption--any and all consumption--and it is important to think about where that curve turns over for you. I like the way YMOYL motivates this idea.

I am highly quantitative and, as I said earlier, I use Monte Carlo software to see how my consumption choices impact my future choices and options and this really trains one's thinking. Most people cannot articulate their point of "enough", nor do they have a solid understanding of how much money it will take to retire.

I believe that learning about investing and finances is as important and learning about good nutrition. There are certain things everyone needs to know. While I like YMOYL, I find their approach to investing worryingly simplistic.

So, LBYM in my life requires some number crunching and I was figuring that some people people do it this way, but that there were probably other common themes.
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:10 AM   #92
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Anyone else have their hoco-sensors shrieking?
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:37 AM   #93
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Anyone else have their hoco-sensors shrieking?
Nah, I think GeoffC is a real poster. Besides H0cu$ would never have taken the family skiing.

You must not be spending enough time reading the "Passion Savings" website.
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Old 01-24-2011, 03:29 PM   #94
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It's always fun to watch a poster try to get this cat herd discussion board to agree on a definition of... just about anything.


I think LBYM is the line where your spending finally matches your values and goals... frugality without deprivation.

A side issue is that when the goal has been achieved, the frugality isn't easy to shut off. It makes no economic sense for me to bend over and pick up a penny on the sidewalk. Emotionally, though, found money is a real thrill.

As has been mentioned, there are sustainability motives behind LBYM & frugality. We have no apparent economic reason to compost or vermipost or recycle but we enjoy it anyway. Good thing, too, because the economic reason is pretty compelling for all that it's difficult to identify.
The way I have found to 'shut it off' is to give away much. (I know you also give away stuff)
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Old 01-24-2011, 03:53 PM   #95
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I started this thread to engage this community on their thoughts on what LBYM means so see if there was a common base of thinking and/or whether there might be some metrics that provide common ground. Dex asked me to provide more of my ideas / thinking, so here goes.
I read your post several times and am still at a loss as to how you operate. I'm guessing others are having the same issue, hence the responses.

Assuming your first paragraph is your goal. Simply stated in a manner that others could use as a template:

Goal:
Is this close to your Goal/Philosophy/Mission statement? My goal is to have the freedom to do work that I really value and enjoy and that I am well compensated for that effort. It is also very important to me to be able to vary the level and intensity of work, depending on what else is going on in my life. (I don't get this part - "My ideal situation is one in which my expenditures, my choice work, and my long-term plans all go together" - needs clarification)

Strategy
What is LBYM mean to you? Specifically, how does it manifest itself in your life? Examples.
include - Income, expense, investing

Tactic
Metrics - What are the specific financial and measurement tools do you use?


Monte Carlo simulations is a risk assessment tool in my mind not a financial or measurement tool.

Are you in sales or marketing?

You might need to start a new thread.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:39 PM   #96
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Confused

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Are you in sales or marketing?
Huh?

I am starting to think that I am in the wrong place as far as my thinking and perspectives. If my thoughts are as confusing to you guys as many of the comments are to me, this is probably not going anywhere...
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:10 PM   #97
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Huh?

I am starting to think that I am in the wrong place as far as my thinking and perspectives. If my thoughts are as confusing to you guys as many of the comments are to me, this is probably not going anywhere...
Your posts seem to suggest you are trying to formulate a mission statement or something similar. I get enough of that at work.
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