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Old 06-19-2009, 10:33 AM   #21
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We are far less collectivist than Europe and they don't have forced diet and exercise. I seriously doubt it will ever happen here.
Yes, but I suspect that may be offset by an increased mentality here that "if they're using my tax dollars, I have the right to say how they can be used."
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:37 AM   #22
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Yes, but I suspect that may be offset by an increased mentality here that "if they're using my tax dollars, I have the right to say how they can be used."
Like we have a say now?
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:41 AM   #23
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One problem with his analysis is that many European countries have lifestyle issues as well (high levels of smoking is one significant example). We are far less collectivist than Europe and they don't have forced diet and exercise. I seriously doubt it will ever happen here.
I think that there is a cultural difference as well. In Europe, access to health care is considered a right. In the US, access to health care is considered a privilege. As long as people think this way, there will be no universal health care system in the US.
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:42 AM   #24
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I would guess the majority of obesity is due to over eating and poor exercise habits. Not genetics. You do not have the rampant obesity problems in other countries as the US does.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:11 AM   #25
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Maybe so, but how do you handle the tough cases? There is some evidence of a genetic link to things like obesity, for example.
By definition if it is genetic driven it is not a behavior.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:16 AM   #26
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By definition if it is genetic driven it is not a behavior.
That's my point. Not everything we associate with "bad lifestyle choices" is because of a bad lifestyle choice.

Some people are genetically predisposed to higher cholesterol and higher blood pressure. The default assumption is that people with higher cholesterol and higher blood pressure have that problem because of poor diet and lack of exercise. (In other words, it must be their own fault that they have high cholesterol/blood pressure.) So if our desire is to "stick it to the behavior," you can't just stick to everyone with a high BP because it's not necessarily because of poor lifestyle choices.

For what it's worth, my genetics lean toward high blood pressure and a very healthy level of "good" HDL cholesterol.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:16 AM   #27
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I wonder if this discussion will go the route of the long closed obesity thread. I almost blew a gasket over that one and had to take forum break.

The obesity epidemic
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:18 AM   #28
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I wonder if this discussion will go the route of the long closed obesity thread.
Fat chance.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:32 AM   #29
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After universal coverage?

BBC NEWS | Health | Is health rationing the answer?
The NHS cannot pay for every treatment that every patient wants. But does that mean that healthcare has to be "rationed"?

+++++++++++
EDITORIAL: Rationing health care - Washington Times

estimate that we could take as much as $700 billion a year out of our health care system." Let's be clear - Mr. Summers is talking about rationing. Total health care expenditures in the United States in 2008 came to $2.5 trillion. The implication of his statement is that health care expenditures can be cut by almost 30 percent. That's a major amputation to the system. Mr. Summers tried to kill the pain by saying it all wouldn't have to be cut right away. That's only comforting if it's not your loved one's transplant that bureaucrats reject.

+++++

The same people who can't get the Post Office to break even or fix Amtrak are going manage health care? Sounds good to me!




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Old 06-19-2009, 11:33 AM   #30
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Ziggy,
I have heard the statement before, that there are people that can't loose weight. However, I have never seen a picture of a fat prisoner coming from WWII concentration camps or Japanese Prisoner of War Camps. My mother use to say she could not use weight. However, she would then say 'Unless I get my diet below a 1,000 calories a day, and you can't live on that.' She died at 80 over weight but happy. She would have a bowl of ice cream and say 'This is how I keep my girlish figure'. She was 5'2" and well over 200lbs. She would have given up Medicare before she gave up that ice cream!
I know this is off the original subject... but I saw one of the news magazines that disputed a bit of what you say...

They showed this guy that looked fat... had to be over 300 lbs... he had started to run to lose weight... and eventually was running a marathon... but was still fat.. and looked it... one example that is extreme and not any kind of study... but it surprised me

as for your prisoner of war example... sure, if you starve someone they will lose weight.. and die... not a good sign for healthcare...
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:35 AM   #31
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The same people who can't get the Post Office to break even or fix Amtrak are going manage health care? Sounds good to me!
Nobody is seriously suggesting nationalizing all the hospitals and insurers, and nobody is seriously suggesting making doctors and nurses federal employees. I certainly haven't heard the president suggest that.

I think that's a significant breakdown in the comparison.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:37 AM   #32
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Martha, there are several things I would have never thought I would see in this country. Like government ownership of GM. Never say Never! When seat belt laws were passed we were told that police would never stop someone just because they don't have a seat belt on. Now we have Click it or Ticket and we just accept it. It's the law.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:38 AM   #33
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They showed this guy that looked fat... had to be over 300 lbs... he had started to run to lose weight... and eventually was running a marathon... but was still fat.. and looked it... one example that is extreme and not any kind of study... but it surprised me
Another thing is: one can't be a slave to the height/weight charts. Listed at 5' 10" and 221 pounds, San Diego Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson is considered "obese" by the usual standard. It's pretty hard for a running back to be a star in the NFL if they are "obese."
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:38 AM   #34
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That's my point. Not everything we associate with "bad lifestyle choices" is because of a bad lifestyle choice.

Some people are genetically predisposed to higher cholesterol and higher blood pressure. The default assumption is that people with higher cholesterol and higher blood pressure have that problem because of poor diet and lack of exercise. (In other words, it must be their own fault that they have high cholesterol/blood pressure.) So if our desire is to "stick it to the behavior," you can't just stick to everyone with a high BP because it's not necessarily because of poor lifestyle choices.

For what it's worth, my genetics lean toward high blood pressure and a very healthy level of "good" HDL cholesterol.

That "assumption" is only made by those who don't understand the issues. So why interject ill informed opinions into the discussion?
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:39 AM   #35
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That "assumption" is only made by those who don't understand the issues. So why interject ill informed opinions into the discussion?
Because ill informed opinions vote and pay taxes?
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:43 AM   #36
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Nobody is seriously suggesting nationalizing all the hospitals and insurers, and nobody is seriously suggesting making doctors and nurses federal employees. I certainly haven't heard the president suggest that.

I think that's a significant breakdown in the comparison.
The "no one" argument doesn't work and is a bit of clutter. There are a lot of things that "no one" is suggesting.
The point of the post was rationing.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:43 AM   #37
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There was a special on TV, I don't remember the name, but the jest was to get out of shape people to in condition to run a marathon. While most got into good enough shape to run the marathon, few lost weight, because they did not change their eating habits. That's why they say 'diet and exercise'

Yes the POW example is extreme. I use it just to point out that weight loss is possible. I will concede that there are folks, that due to a medical condition, find it very hard to loose weight. However, from the materials I have seen, even these folks will loose weight with diet and exercise. Most, however, are unwilling to stay on the plan. I am 40 lbs over weight. I know it and I know what it's cause is. I am currently unwilling to do what it takes to take it off, and I don't think it is governments business to tax fat food to help me. As this has been proposed and is in being is some states, don't try and tell me the government won't do it.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:27 PM   #38
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Need to put a sin tax on fast food. If its good enough for smokes and booze. Why not junk and fast food.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:28 PM   #39
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Need to put a sin tax on fast food. If its good enough for smokes and booze. Why not junk and fast food.
That creaking you hear in the distance is the hinges on Pandora's Box that are starting to open...
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:29 PM   #40
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That creaking you hear in the distance is the hinges on Pandora's Box that are starting to open...
Oh that started along time ago..
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