How Low to the Revolution?

[Grep]

A popular revolution in the U.S. is virtually impossible. The people are too well trained and submissive, and the Police and Army, etc., are too strong and disciplined. When the Police, etc., have not been paid in 18 months and have splintered into gangs shaking down travelers on the road and raiding homes for food and money, maybe. We're a long, long, long way from that! ... I hope.

 

[Bestwifeever]

"What if there was a war and nobody came?"

 

[chinaco]

I do not think there would be a revolution. But there could be unrest... large protests and riots if things get bad enough.

Our version of a revolution would be to expel all current politicians in the next set of elections and make dramatic changes. The culprits of the crisis would be punish severely. They would be sent to jail for long periods... to a real penitentiary.

If we have a depression... there could be some unrest.... but more likely it will result in a huge increases in property crime. If we have a complete collapse of the financial system (hyper inflation and property being seized for taxes).. there probably will be massive protests, civil unrest (riots) and a large increase in crime... including organized crime. If things really go down hill black markets emerge.

Look at Russia. It is a good example of systemic government failure.

 

[UncleHoney]

We're a long, long, long way from that! ... I hope.

None of us are more than about nine meals away from violence.

 

[Culture]

A popular revolution in the U.S. is virtually impossible. The people are too well trained and submissive, and the Police and Army, etc., are too strong and disciplined.

While I agree with the first sentence, I disagree with the second. Contrary to most countries, the police and military in the US are much "closer" to the "people" than the government. This is what prevent the need for revolutions here. For example, if the wet dream of many right-wing nut-cases came true, and Barak Obama came out and admitted he was a Wahhabi Muslim and was imposing sharia law in the US, who do you think the military and police would follow? (BTW, Obama is not Muslim, this is a hypothetical.)

Or conversely, if the wet dream of many left-wing nut-cases came true and Bush said he was not going to turn over the presidency to Obama, and was declaring himself Emperor. Who do you think the military and police would follow? (BTW, Bush, while misguided, is a loyal American citizen trying to do the best he can within his mental limits, so this will not happen.)

 

[HFWR]

We have met the enemy, and he is us... Walt Kelly

And what's wrong with wasabi?

 

[REWahoo]

None of us are more than about nine meals away from violence.

Is your DW's cooking really that bad?

 

[Bestwifeever]

Amazing that we've moved from debating paying off the mortgage to when the uprising will begin, in only a few months.... Are the tinfoil hats winning? Is it really different this time?

 

[FinanceDude]

We have met the enemy, and he is us... Walt Kelly

And what's wrong with wasabi?

I thought wasabi was the basis of a "Wassup" Bud commercial??

 

[Retire Soon]

Amazing that we've moved from debating paying off the mortgage to when the uprising will begin, in only a few months.... Are the tinfoil hats winning? Is it really different this time?

I haven't read too many posts lately, but I never thought I'd read a thread like this one. It seems that the sentiment on this forum has definitely shifted in favor of tinfoil hats.

BTW, it looks like the bailout for Freddie is going to us cost much more than what we were originally told. Where will this new money come from?


Freddie Mac Seeks Government Aid After $25.3B Loss - washingtonpost.com

 

[REWahoo]

I haven't read too many posts lately, but I never thought I'd read a thread like this one.

Yeah, I know my jokes are bad, but you gotta work with me here...

 

[Independent]

I think Culture is correct about the current situation. If the president simply went off the deep end, we'd have a "constitutional crisis", but we'd get through it.

I take the OP to be asking, "What would it take to break this down?". Is there some point where the economy is so bad that we get violent riots, general strikes, assasinated politicians (or CEO's?), etc?

Some people say that FDR "saved capitalism from the capitalists". He pre-empted the revolution by getting out in front of it.

I think that's "the American way". If things get bad, politicians find ways to ease the pain. We're already headed for some sort of mortgage forgiveness and extended unemployment benefits. I think we'd see all sorts of gov't programs before we get to 25% unemployment.

As long as the public thinks the gov't "feels our pain" and is "doing something", we're not going to see the revolution.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

We have met the enemy, and he is us... Walt Kelly

And what's wrong with wasabi?

Wasabi is awesome!

 

[Grep]

Culture,

I commented on a "popular revolution," not a palace coup. In the latter case, the lower ranks of the police and military would be loyal to those immediately above them, who would be loyal to those working legally to correct the patently illegal actions of the president (in your examples).

Remember when Alexander Haig declared "I am in control here" after Regan was shot? This would have been illegal, and others in the room immediately objected. He certainly did not get that control. If I remember correctly, he resigned some time afterward, presumably partly under pressure over this misstatement.

The police and especially the military are dangerous systems in which order is strictly enforced. If the common man revolted, the police and military would likely be quite sympathetic, as you point out, but for them to disobey orders, throw down with the rioters and turn their guns on Washington simply would not happen in this country (at least prior to the utter collapse of life as we know it).

 

[Bikerdude]

No doubt that there is plenty of blame to go around.

While I am definitely tongue-in-cheek in my poll, there is no doubt that the people can end up "against the wall" as a result of a severe financial crisis. the French Revolution, for example, started as a financial crisis.

Nassim Nicholas Taleb the "Black Swan" guy recently stated that his worst case for the financial mess would put us in a situation not seen since the American Revolution. So at least to him its possible.

But in reality, whats a guy who makes his living predicting "Black Swans" going to talk about.

 

[al_bundy]

Culture,

I commented on a "popular revolution," not a palace coup. In the latter case, the lower ranks of the police and military would be loyal to those immediately above them, who would be loyal to those working legally to correct the patently illegal actions of the president (in your examples).

Remember when Alexander Haig declared "I am in control here" after Regan was shot? This would have been illegal, and others in the room immediately objected. He certainly did not get that control. If I remember correctly, he resigned some time afterward, presumably partly under pressure over this misstatement.

The police and especially the military are dangerous systems in which order is strictly enforced. If the common man revolted, the police and military would likely be quite sympathetic, as you point out, but for them to disobey orders, throw down with the rioters and turn their guns on Washington simply would not happen in this country (at least prior to the utter collapse of life as we know it).

most cops are down to earth people, just like every soldier i knew. something like 65% of the military is married and have their own children. even the drill seargents are normal once they leave DS duty

 

[barbarus]

As has happened before, in many cultures, the police and military will follow orders of those at the top. As long as cops are not required to shoot a brother officer, they will do what their told by their superiors.

Similarly, the military will follow their officers. They will be told it is for the good of the country and will obey.

Remember where the ultimate loyalty of that man or woman in uniform's loyalty ultimately lies. Historically, this has always been the case.

 

[Texarkandy]

As has happened before, in many cultures, the police and military will follow orders of those at the top. As long as cops are not required to shoot a brother officer, they will do what their told by their superiors.

Similarly, the military will follow their officers. They will be told it is for the good of the country and will obey.

Remember where the ultimate loyalty of that man or woman in uniform's loyalty ultimately lies. Historically, this has always been the case.

In the U.S. there is a military & law enforcement culture that a soldier/officer refuse to comply with a clearly unlawful order - no matter who gives the order.

Further our law enforcement tradition has evolved mostly into shooting only to prevent an imminent danger to life or GBI.

Frankly, having been both, I don't see that US soldiers or law enforcement would participate in any kind of mass extra-judcial detentions of citizens & executions just because some superior officer told them to.

I think & know better of our soldiers & law enforcement officers than that.

And I find this statement rather insulting personally:
"As long as cops are not required to shoot a brother officer, they will do what their told by their superiors."

 

[al_bundy]

and most of the officers i've met were extremely patriotic, very religious or both. in many cases they didn't like the civilian leadership. in the last 10 years we've had a lot of senior officers retire simply because they didn't like the civilian leadership. i've also met officers who come from wealthy families where there is a tradition of military service going back to the 1860's and earlier. they don't go into the military for money.

 

[Frugality_of_Apathy]

Frankly, having been both, I don't see that US soldiers or law enforcement would participate in any kind of mass extra-judcial detentions of citizens & executions just because some superior officer told them to.

I think & know better of our soldiers & law enforcement officers than that.

And I find this statement rather insulting personally:
"As long as cops are not required to shoot a brother officer, they will do what their told by their superiors."

So I guess the plan is going to be ship the regular police to Sudan, as all the military is busy with other wars, and then ask Mexico to aid us in policing.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

In the U.S. there is a military & law enforcement culture that a soldier/officer refuse to comply with a clearly unlawful order - no matter who gives the order.

Further our law enforcement tradition has evolved mostly into shooting only to prevent an imminent danger to life or GBI.

Frankly, having been both, I don't see that US soldiers or law enforcement would participate in any kind of mass extra-judcial detentions of citizens & executions just because some superior officer told them to.

I think & know better of our soldiers & law enforcement officers than that.

And I find this statement rather insulting personally:
"As long as cops are not required to shoot a brother officer, they will do what their told by their superiors."

Consider the source Those I know in both professions don't feel this way either .

 

[REWahoo]

Similarly, the military will follow their officers. They will be told it is for the good of the country and will obey.

It's obvious you never served in the military - at least not in any of the US branches.

 

[haha]

It's obvious you never served in the military - at least not in any of the US branches.

You talking about privates arranging unscheduled transfers of a Lt.?

Keep it quiet, man.

Ha

 

[Retire Soon]

You talking about privates arranging unscheduled transfers of a Lt.?

Keep it quiet, man.

Ha

I'm not a veteran, but I've heard that many Lt.s met their maker in this manner during the Viet Nam War.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

I'm not a veteran, but I've heard that many Lt.s met their maker in this manner during the Viet Nam War.

Thats more myth than reality.