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Old 01-10-2015, 11:23 AM   #81
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MMM is moderate compared to earlyretirementextreme.com

I look at sites like these to make me lose my worries about retirement. If they can get by on that little I should be living the life of luxury!

What both sites do well is make us rethink what we need to retire. I live a short walk from the library (2 if you count the nearby college) and downtown. Really, if I can maintain my home and food supply I will live better than most people on this planet. Everything else is luxury.

Counting down the last months to retirement and the idea of having time to go to the library, pick out a book, and read it without interruption sounds like the life of a king!
I am a couple of weeks if not a couple of days from retirement and I know I've worked much longer than I've needed to. All I need to do is look back to my college days and the college days of my children. We got by living in small apartments, eating simply and enjoying the many low cost activities available around us. I really don't see an issue getting by on $10-15,000/yr in the right location. Public transportation and much less stuff would be essential. Traveling would be very limited but I'd have food, clothing, shelter and leisure activities abounding. Medical would be covered with ACA subsidies.
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Old 01-10-2015, 11:36 AM   #82
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This puzzles me. Why like something that is supposed to be informational, if the information content is so suspect that you must take it with a grain of salt?

Why not spend the time learning about WW1, or physics, or what women expect in a relationship? Any of these things can be useful

Ha
I guess because the latter 3 subjects are less interesting to me than FIRE and personal finance, and I find his writing entertaining. I've found *some* of his ideas useful. I don't mind evaluating which suggestions I can incorporate into my life, and which won't work for me. It's a blog, not a bible, so I can take from it what I like, and leave the rest.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:15 PM   #83
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There are many good sustainable living resources, like the Zero Waste home blog, faircompanies.com, Mother Earth News, treehugger.com, Juliet Schor's books, and Yes! Magazine:

Work Less, Live More by Juliet Schor - YES! Magazine

Most advocate smaller / lower cost housing, since housing is generally a family's largest expense. Juliet Schor is big on downshifting and not quitting paid work forever at a young age. This seems more realistic than if you are in your 30s and have $300 - $400K in investable assets saved up, especially if you also have a large, expensive house to insure, pay taxes on, heat, cool, and want to take multiple vacations a year that require air fare and lodging.

There are also many good sources of financial advice that can help people make realistic retirement plans. I don't get the whole retire forever with a big house and extensive travel being a several hundred thousandaire in investable assets in your thirties (with no pension and limited years of paying into SS, increasing medical costs and possibly LTC to look forward to). What retirement calculators would these numbers give even a 50% chance of success?

Maybe if it was one person and not a family or the house was a $100K house and investable assets were $700K it would be make more sense to me.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:25 PM   #84
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There are many good sustainable living resources, like the Zero Waste home blog, faircompanies.com, Mother Earth News, treehugger.com, Juliet Schor's books, and Yes! Magazine:

Work Less, Live More by Juliet Schor - YES! Magazine

Most advocate smaller / lower cost housing, since housing is generally a family's largest expense.
I read this piece that you posted. It gives me the same question that many other ideas of this type give me. I know a lot of people with young children, mostly met through my sons and their friends. For most of these people, the boundaries of cost cutting are determined by children. If you have a boy and a girl, you need 3 bedrooms, no matter that there were plenty of mixed gender children raised in Colonial homes with a lot fewer than 3 bedrooms. Every world has legal and social expectations that are usually best observed.

Then we get to school. When I started high school in a big city school that drew from very mixed neighborhoods, both I and my parents realized immediately that this was not a cool idea. This was 50+ years ago, and it has only gotten worse. If I had school age children today I would move to Bellevue to an apartment in a district that would funnels to Bellevue High school, if I could find one with adequate space that I could pay for.

Keeping your children safe, and seeing to it that they get educations that enable them to compete in today's world is job #1 for most parents. And if you want to know how difficult that usually is, take a look at acceptance statistics from UC Berkeley. There is a great Alan Arkin movie called Slums of Beverly Hills that deals with this. I own a copy, and watch it more of less annually

I respect cost cutting, I have always been cheap, but looking around I think that perhaps non-parents or those with grown children can get out of touch. I have a friend who bought a rundown 50s sfh in Bellevue at the time of her divorce. She successfully raised a son who is very well employed as a software developer, by seeing to it that he attended good schools that she qualified him for my living where she did, and the UW, a reasonable quality reasonable price state flagship school here.

I think that especially when you are looking to the following generation sin your family, cheap living is far from a layup.

Ha
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:43 PM   #85
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I read this piece that you posted. It gives me the same question that many other ideas of this type give me. I know a lot of people with young children, mostly met through my sons and their friends. For most of these people, the boundaries of cost cutting are determined by children. If you have a boy and a girl, you need 3 bedrooms, no matter that there were plenty of mixed gender children raised in Colonial homes with a lot fewer than 3 bedrooms. Every world has legal and social expectations that are usually best observed.

Then we get to school. When I started high school in a big city school that drew from very mixed neighborhoods, both I and my parents realized immediately that this was not a cool idea. This was 50+ years ago, and it has only gotten worse. If I had school age children today I would move to Bellevue to an apartment in a district that would funnels to Bellevue High school, if I could find one with adequate space that I could pay for.

Keeping your children safe, and seeing to it that they get educations that enable them to compete in today's world is job #1 for most parents. And if you want to know how difficult that usually is, take a look at acceptance statistics from UC Berkeley. There is a great Alan Arkin movie called Slums of Beverly Hills that deals with this. I own a copy, and watch it more of less annually

I respect cost cutting, I have always been cheap, but looking around I think that perhaps non-parents or those with grown children can get out of touch. I have a friend who bought a rundown 50s sfh in Bellevue at the time of her divorce. She successfully raised a son who is very well employed as a software developer, by seeing to it that he attended good schools that she qualified him for my living where she did, and the UW, a reasonable quality reasonable price state flagship school here.

I think that especially when you are looking to the following generation sin your family, cheap living is far from a layup.

Ha
I personally didn't read poverty level living into the Juliet Schor article. She herself works as a university professor, researcher and author:

http://www.julietschor.org/about-juliet/

I think she just meant something like learning to live on $150K instead of $200K, $70K instead of $100K or $40K instead of $60K and having a more free time with sustainable living. Or for some posters here who hate their jobs but love the money, making $2M instead of $4M. She is big on concepts like high tech provisioning, not working like the Amish or living in poverty:

"We can reduce reliance on the market by meeting basic needs (income, food, housing, consumer goods, energy) through a series of creative, smart, high productivity technologies: growing food (using permaculture and vertical gardens), creating energy on a small scale (convert a Prius to a plug-in and double gas mileage), building homes with free labor and local, natural materials and using new Fab-Lab technologies (small, smart machines that make almost anything)."
http://www.julietschor.org/the-book/synopsis/

For us, we could have easily lived in the same house with the same public schools on on half or maybe 3/4 of our former incomes when the kids were growing up if we had wised up and lived more sustainably sooner than we did.
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Old 01-10-2015, 04:19 PM   #86
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I personally didn't read poverty level living into the Juliet Schor article. She herself works as a university professor, researcher and author:
I think I finally understand. Get a PhD live in an undiscovered gem of a neighborhood in suburban Boston, write books about making your own milling machine out of old stable bedding straw, grow steaks on vertical trellises in a cheap house with a private back yard in Newtown Mass, and write positive books explaining all of this to the less talented masses.

I wish I had come across these secrets earlier in my life!

Ha
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Old 01-10-2015, 04:42 PM   #87
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I think I finally understand. Get a PhD live in an undiscovered gem of a neighborhood in suburban Boston, write books about making your own milling machine out of old stable bedding straw, grow steaks on vertical trellises in a cheap house with a private back yard in Newtown Mass, and write positive books explaining all of this to the less talented masses.

I wish I had come across these secrets earlier in my life!

Ha
I think you are getting closer but not quite there yet. The idea is more along the lines of not working 60 hours a week to buy depreciating consumer goods and fast food because you don't have time to cook. Juliet Schor is also the author of The Overworked American and The Overspent American so you get the idea, or maybe not. I like her ideas. They helped us to be FI by cutting expenses that didn't add to our quality of life. YMMV.
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Old 01-10-2015, 05:20 PM   #88
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The idea is more along the lines of not working 60 hours a week to buy depreciating consumer goods and fast food because you don't have time to cook. Juliet Schor is also the author of The Overworked American and The Overspent American so you get the idea, or maybe not. I like her ideas.
I found the article pretty interesting and I can't say I disagree with her message. In fact, while I was working I would have killed to have reduced hours. But unfortunately this was generally discouraged at pretty much everywhere I have worked. Working less or even just working the standard 40 hours would have put your career at jeopardy.
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Old 01-10-2015, 05:28 PM   #89
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Ah, yes, Juliet Schor. Her book, The Overworked American: The Unexpected Decline of Leisure, was THE eye-opener for me. It didn't take more than a couple months after reading that for me to officially ER. Hard to believe that was twelve years ago.
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Old 01-10-2015, 05:29 PM   #90
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I think you are getting closer but not quite there yet. The idea is more along the lines of not working 60 hours a week to buy depreciating consumer goods and fast food because you don't have time to cook. Juliet Schor is also the author of The Overworked American and The Overspent American so you get the idea, or maybe not. I like her ideas. They helped us to be FI by cutting expenses that didn't add to our quality of life. YMMV.
LOL. well I guess even old dogs like me might learn something new. However, I am not sure I have ever had any expenses that did not improve my quality of life, or just make it more likely that I could go on living.

Ha
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Old 01-10-2015, 06:29 PM   #91
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LOL. well I guess even old dogs like me might learn something new. However, I am not sure I have ever had any expenses that did not improve my quality of life, or just make it more likely that I could go on living.

Ha
Maybe you already follow sustainable living without calling it that? If I remember right you are retired, LBYMs in a condo in in a walkable urban area and do not have a car. Maybe you're our poster boy for sustainable living without realizing it.
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Old 01-10-2015, 07:18 PM   #92
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Maybe you already follow sustainable living without calling it that? If I remember right you are retired, LBYMs in a condo in in a walkable urban area and do not have a car. Maybe you're our poster boy for sustainable living without realizing it.
It must be wonderful to have the option to live in a walkable urban area and work only 40 hrs/wk. In theory life can be wonderful if you can live where you want, do what you want and have someone pay you what you want.

It takes me back to my younger days just out of college. I met a girl that was disgusted that I was an engineer that worked for those horrible companies that polluted the world. I asked her what she did. She said she worked for insurance company X. My answer was we have a policy with her company for our operations. She didn't seem to see the irony.
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Old 01-10-2015, 07:52 PM   #93
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I woman I know fought with her father incessantly in the 70s, because he was a "horrible" avionics engineer working for one of the very black war companies of that era.

It is embarrassing to look back on some of our passionately held stances. I never felt much real passion about this sort of thing. I felt it was basically impossible to know where right lay. Nevertheless I managed to embarrass myself frequently. My most embarrassing memories involving my Father were how stupid and narrowly informed I was, yet that never kept me from a narcissistic certainty that I was right. Other blushing memories involve how totally moronic I was about women. Likely still am, but I am better at trying to keep it undercover.

Ha
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Old 01-10-2015, 09:05 PM   #94
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I just read this entire thread in one sitting and it has been a fascinating read.

All the power to the $15k per year folks, but I just don't see it.

My little example: I'm fastidious about home maintenance. I knew I had a new roof coming in the next few years, and have a $4k budget for it. But despite my fastidiousness, a few leaks escaped my attention and now I have huge rot up there. What was a standard reshingle will now include decking and will probably be $6k or more, depending if mold or other issues are found.

I'd be killed on a 15 to 25k budget. I just don't see how to deal with this.

Oh wait. No, I get it. I should be shaving chips off the downed trees in my back yard, binding them with resin from my pine trees, and pressing them in my own home-made 4x8 forms to create my own free OSB. I can then haul these up the 3 story ladder and do it myself. I suppose I should also work on recycling my old newspapers into shingles?

BTW, how do you strain glass from peanut butter?
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Old 01-10-2015, 09:07 PM   #95
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BTW, how do you strain glass from peanut butter?
Very carefully...
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Old 01-17-2015, 07:36 AM   #96
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You’ll Never Believe How Much the MMM Family Spent This Year…

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As we do once every year, Mrs. MM and I have spent the day nervously tallying the sinful blizzard of excessive spending that we have been committing over the past twelve months.
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Old 01-17-2015, 08:06 AM   #97
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Am a little surprised that there have been no other references to ERE. I enjoy it becused it zeroes in on the philosophy of living in today's world going beyond money and personal interests, to how we fit in.
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Old 01-17-2015, 08:58 AM   #98
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Am a little surprised that there have been no other references to ERE. I enjoy it becused it zeroes in on the philosophy of living in today's world going beyond money and personal interests, to how we fit in.
ERE was interesting until Jacob ditched his RV and took a 6 figure job as a quant. He then started reposting articles from years back instead of coming up with new content.
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Old 01-17-2015, 05:43 PM   #99
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One thing I find interesting is that he's not budgeting - he's just claiming straight-up cash accounting (assuming his numbers are legit). Notice he doesn't have anything listed for the eventual items: accidents, appliances, home maintenance, healthcare, etc. He squeeks by with some good results, and says he only spends $25k/year.

If you went to the casino and played craps, and rolled 8s 3 times in a row and won, would you think that you could walk into any casino all the time and keep playing craps and make a living out of it? Hell no - because you know in the long run, things average out and you will have some good runs, and not-so-good runs.

Yes, he did spend just $25k. But I'm curious how he will deal with the whole thing of the eventual, unavoidable cash outlays that will come with time.

As an example - he says he used just 2 tanks of gas for the entire year! Quite admirable if that's the truth....but there can also be a downside to such gas thriftiness: your battery in your car won't last as long. Condensation may accumulate in components if used that little. Tires dry-rot.

And admittedly, I haven't read his blog...but I see a reference to him moving into a different house. He references buying a place and redoing the roof, and then doing plumbing and various other activities in it before moving in. Was this a second house he owned and paid for with cash? A little curious how he counts all of that expense in the grand scheme of things.

I also see just $410 for homeowner's insurance. I wonder what his insurance bill was for 2 residences? Sounds pretty cheap for 2 (even for 1 residence, given insurance liability coverages, etc.). Speaking of which, I wonder what coverage limits he has. Referring to my earlier comment about playing craps at the casino, if you carry bare minimum liability coverage for auto and/or homeowners, versus paying far more each year for 5x-10x the coverage, is it being 'successful' if you are exposing yourself to a huge issue if an accident happens and someone sues you?

And when his son turns 16, hope he has fun paying for those car insurance premiums! Wonder where that $2,000/year+ will come from in his budget.

Also, I'll be curious to see how he spins his home renovations. Buying a second residence then renovating it while you live in yours (when you claim a paid-off home and "zero housing expenses") surely takes some cash. You don't get to buy a second home with cash you have, do all this work with your own sweat equity (and buying materials), and then sell your other house and claim zero housing costs on a $25k budget. Unless you are ok with having tons of assets to pay for all of this. Which makes his $25k budget more of a charade and shell game than an honest look at what one's true "cost of living" budgets are.

And here is an interesting comment he makes:

"Similarly, I don’t count business expenses like blog-only travel or supplies in my personal budget, because that wouldn’t get spent if I wasn’t doing the business, and the business covers those expenses through its own income."

Ah, I see. "Blog-only travel or supplies" aren't counted. Yes, I haveto fly to South America for a week-long trip for a talk I'm giving. That's blog-related, so any costs associated with a week here, or traveling a few days there....that's off-budget. Sure, it adds enjoyment to my life and is a perk. But it doesn't cost me anything!

That's like bragging that your food costs are only $100/month because you get to go out and eat dinner 20 times a month on your employer's dime for business dinners. "But hey, I don't pay for it, so I can claim I live a bare-bones budget". The only problem is, you still get the benefit and intangible benefits of that experience without any impact to your cashflow.

I'm also curious just how aggressive he is on what is defined as "blog-only travel or supplies".
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Old 01-17-2015, 07:49 PM   #100
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If you work on your own home, that's not a cost. If you work a job and just buy a renovated home it is. If you cover the home renovation with the proceeds from the sale of another home, it's not a cost. If you spend out of savings from your bank account it is. If you teach your own kid it's not a cost. If you work on something else and you use the income for your kid's education it is. Finally if you work on your own home, your own kid's education, and your own blog you are retired. If you don't do you own things you are not. Economics says something about division of labor and comparative advantage.
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