How will same-sex marriage affect SS/Pensions?

mickeyd

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Does anyone know how this SCOTUS ruling will affect the future ability of SS/government pensions to pay additional benefits that they had not previously had to consider? I assume that there will be a negative impact on these funds.

  • Social Security: Same-sex couples who are married in a state where marriage is legal are now entitled to spousal and survivor benefits which can amount to thousands of dollars in additional income over a lifetime. Regarding spousal benefits specifically, there are a number of planning strategies that are now on the table and will allow couples to maximize their collective benefits. The ‘file and suspend’ strategy is one of many. To name just a few of the other benefits, for couples who have minor dependent children, the child may also be eligible for benefits at the time one spouse claims benefits. In addition, same-sex couples who end up divorcing would be eligible for benefits based on their ex’s record as long as their marriage lasted at least 10 years, they are not currently married, they are 62 or more, and their ex is entitled to retirement or disability benefits.
  • Entitlement to government and military pension and health care benefits: Same-sex couples who are entitled to a pension through their military service or government employment will have the peace of mind that this income stream will continue to their spouse when they pass away. Prior to this change, married same-sex couples often spent a great deal of money on life insurance policies in order to provide a lump sum to their spouse because they knew their spouse would be denied spousal income benefits. Going forward, many gay couples will be able to significantly reduce or eliminate this coverage for this purpose. In addition, the spouse would have access to health care benefits, worth thousands of dollars of savings.
How Gay Marriage Ruling Gave $36,000 in Benefits to a Client | Financial Planning
 
Does anyone know how this SCOTUS ruling will affect the future ability of SS/government pensions to pay additional benefits that they had not previously had to consider? I assume that there will be a negative impact on these funds.

How Gay Marriage Ruling Gave $36,000 in Benefits to a Client | Financial Planning

If you're looking for the dollar impact on the SS Trust Fund, I think we'll get a good estimate next year when the SS Trustees Report comes out. The actuaries will include the benefits you listed in their total cost. They also include a discussion which covers the major changes from one year's report to the next. I'd look for "repeal of DOMA" as one of the those items.

My guess is "not a lot". There won't be that many SS marriages. I'll make an uninformed guess that for most SS couples, the lower earning spouse makes enough that the 50% spousal retirement benefit is irrelevant. The biggest dollar amount may be survivor benefits paid in old age, where the lower income spouse gets to step up to the higher income spouse's benefit.
 
If you're looking for the dollar impact on the SS Trust Fund, I think we'll get a good estimate next year when the SS Trustees Report comes out. The actuaries will include the benefits you listed in their total cost. They also include a discussion which covers the major changes from one year's report to the next. I'd look for "repeal of DOMA" as one of the those items.

My guess is "not a lot". There won't be that many SS marriages. I'll make an uninformed guess that for most SS couples, the lower earning spouse makes enough that the 50% spousal retirement benefit is irrelevant. The biggest dollar amount may be survivor benefits paid in old age, where the lower income spouse gets to step up to the higher income spouse's benefit.
My guess as well. Unless the trustees publish something before then, any numbers we see are likely to be pure speculation.
 
And how will it affect tax receipts?
 
I doubt it will have any affect at all. Although the media industry makes it seem like 30% of the population is gay, in reality they are only around 3% of the population. There are too few of them for it to make any difference.
 
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I doubt it will have any affect at all. Although the media industry makes it seem like 30% of the population is gay, in reality they are only around 3% of the population. There are too few of them for it to make any difference.

+1
Some gay groups like to say 10% of the population, but recent polls of people that self identify as LGBT are around 3.8%. Since there are always people that won't admit to anything, I figure 5% would be closer. But the same point holds: probably not enough to make a difference for SS.
 
I heard/read the three percent figure somewhere else (don't remember where), but just looking at wikipedia seems to corroborate that number.
Wikipedia is known to have less-than-accurate info on a number of subjects and I am highly suspect in this number. I really do not believe we will ever know the % - not that it really matters.

Here's info from Gallup pointing out the difficulty of coming up with an accurate number:

Americans now tend to overestimate the gay population in America. While most expert estimates place America's homosexual population at 10% or less, Americans tend to guess that the number is higher, around 20%.

What Percentage of the Population Is Gay?
 
The issue is not so much how many are gay, but how many are entering into same sex marriages. So from an impact to SS/pensions is it better to look at, in states where same-sex marriage is legal, the percentage of same sex marriages occurring as compared to different sex marriages.
 
The issue is not so much how many are gay, but how many are entering into same sex marriages. So from an impact to SS/pensions is it better to look at, in states where same-sex marriage is legal, the percentage of same sex marriages occurring as compared to different sex marriages.

That ratio would likely overstate the inferred ratio of same-sex marriages to all marriages since the gay marriages in a gay marriage state would likely include a significant number of couples from other states that do not allow gay marriage.
 
As far as my state is concerned, I'd assume it's already been taken into account. Several years ago, the state supreme court ruled that it violated the state constitution to not provide benefits to domestic partners. As a result, health care and retirement benefits apply to domestic partners. Other than the health care benefits, I don't think it costs the state any more as pension benefits are actuarially reduced for a spouse, should the option be taken to provide survivor benefits. In theory, it should be a wash.
 
Our taxes will go up significantly if we get married, because both of us make relatively high incomes, so in our case, the government will see a net gain in tax revenues from our marriage. As for social security, since we both make incomes in excess of the maximum, our social security payments will both be about the same, and neither of us will benefit from getting the other person's benefits. Marriage is really a tax penalty for Federal, State and SS benefits if you have dual income high earners. The main benefit to me will be not having to paying income taxes on the imputed value of the health care benefits that I get from being on my partner's health care plan, which amounts to about $2,500 per year in extra taxes right now. Other than that, I'm not seeing much financial benefit from a taxation standpoint.
 
Does anyone know how this SCOTUS ruling will affect the future ability of SS/government pensions to pay additional benefits that they had not previously had to consider? I assume that there will be a negative impact on these funds.

How Gay Marriage Ruling Gave $36,000 in Benefits to a Client | Financial Planning


No doubt there will be some level of additional expense for SS and gov't pension funds. Time and actual numbers will be required before the exact amount of impact can be figured.

An interesting question is whether the talk of challenging the 10 year rule will turn into action. Apparently some same sex couples who have been in a committed relationship for years feel that the 10 year rule should not apply to them. They would have married years ago (probably more than 10 years ago) if the laws had allowed it. So despite only marrying now, a dependent spouse should receive spousal SS.
 
What I cant understand is why one would be interested in this question. It's fact, no more debate. Also the answer is clear enough. Could more people drawing from the same pot possibly increase the amount available for each drawee?

Ha
 
What I cant understand is why one would be interested in this question. .....

Interest in this question is financial, and rather complex. There are fiscal pluses and minuses to both revenues (e.g. marriage income tax penalties, inheritance taxes, SS benefit taxation w/higher outside income, etc.) and benefits (spousal insurances, SS, Medicaid, other public assistance). Controversial assumptions are important in gauging the overall impact of Scotus ruling. Most of what I've read suggests a net fiscal gain for US gov't (inc revenue & benefits), although the numbers vary widely from insignificant to huge. Of course, time will tell over the next several years.
 
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What I cant understand is why one would be interested in this question. It's fact, no more debate. Also the answer is clear enough. Could more people drawing from the same pot possibly increase the amount available for each drawee?

For SS and pensions specifically that is probably the case. However, for a same sex couple deciding whether to marry or not, particularly later in life, I can see that it would be something to think about just like it may be for opposite sex couples. That is because, the only benefits are not just SS and pensions. When looking at the entirety of benefits in some instances marriage would be financially beneficial while in others it might not. A married couple might pay more in income taxes, for example. Someone eligible for SSI or Medicaid as a single person might not be eligible as a married person, and so on. In short, being married doesn't just involve financial benefits but can also involve financial penalties.
 
Interest in this question is financial, and rather complex. There are fiscal pluses and minuses to both revenues (e.g. marriage income tax penalties, inheritance taxes, SS benefit taxation w/higher outside income, etc.) and benefits (spousal insurances, SS, Medicaid, other public assistance). Controversial assumptions are important in gauging the overall impact of Scotus ruling. Most of what I've read suggests a net fiscal gain for US gov't (inc revenue & benefits), although the numbers vary widely from insignificant to huge. Of course, time will tell over the next several years.

One related legal matter I read about over the past week was a lesbian couple in NY, where one of the women died, and the surviving woman sued for the $300,000+ in inheritance taxes the estate was forced to pay because she couldn't claim the unlimited spousal deduction on inheritance taxes.

Here's a brief article from CNN on it:

Victory for lesbian, years after her partner's death - CNN.com

This does bring up an interesting, legitimate question (and one which I am not at all attempting to troll with, given the recent legal precedent) : if two people of the same sex can legally get married and utilize the unlimited marital deduction for estate tax purposes...how would the court rule on two brothers or two sisters (or any two "close relatives" of the same gender) who's family has significant wealth and does the same thing? The gov't could argue that a brother and sister (or similar related opposite sex couple) who are too close on the family tree are not permitted to legally marry for reasons of too much similarity in the gene pool...but that would not be the same 'concern/justification' for denying two relatives of the same gender from marrying.

The gov't could try and claim that it's a sham marriage only intended to skirt the estate tax laws - but what would be the dividing line between a 'sham same sex arrangement' and a 'legitimate' one when it involves people close to each other on the family tree? What legal precedent is there involving an opposite sex couple marrying "for love" when one spouse is older and/or has a terminal illness, versus it being considered a "sham"?

I realize it would never amount to a significant minority of situations involving the estate tax...but the % of gay/lesbians is a small minority to begin with as well. Just one case involving an estate of $20MM+ could end up setting an interesting precedent.

Think: family business and/or significant family wealth involving a single person and close trusted relatives that they could pass on significant wealth to, far in excess of the standard $5MM estate tax exemption. A $20MM estate would be taxed on $15MM. Given current estate tax rates, that's roughly a cool $5MM in estate taxes that would either be owed or avoided if the unlimited marital deduction were utilized.

And given that 679 people gave up their US citizenship in 1Q 2013 alone, (679 people renounced their US citizenship in 1st quarter of year, IRS says | Fox News) I surely wouldn't be surprised if this situation came up in the not-too-distant future given potentially tens of millions of $ for a significant estate. Sure, many of that 679 aren't doing it solely to save millions in taxes...but I'm sure that a significant minority are.
 
Oh, I completely understand why a gay couple might be interested in this. Self interest, and the desire to understand just where the plusses and minuses apply. Just as any of us is interested in things that will affect our broadly defined well being, and over which we have some say.

Also should be interest by lawyers. Nothing happens in America without lots of legal meanings.

I meant more as a general financial topic for those who are not in the group that will now be allowed to marry. Perhaps I misunderstood where this thread was going.

Ha
 
This does bring up an interesting, legitimate question (and one which I am not at all attempting to troll with, given the recent legal precedent) : if two people of the same sex can legally get married and utilize the unlimited marital deduction for estate tax purposes...how would the court rule on two brothers or two sisters (or any two "close relatives" of the same gender) who's family has significant wealth and does the same thing? The gov't could argue that a brother and sister (or similar related opposite sex couple) who are too close on the family tree are not permitted to legally marry for reasons of too much similarity in the gene pool...but that would not be the same 'concern/justification' for denying two relatives of the same gender from marrying.

This doesn't have anything to do with being gay. A brother and sister could just as easily try to take advantage of the system to avoid taxes, as could two opposite sex people who really have no personal relationship together but just marry for financial reasons. I'm sure there is a percentage of the population who may do this, but I suspect it's a very small percentage. I don't really know what the government may or may not attempt to do to mitigate this. I hardly ever hear about it, so I would guess it's a very small number of cases where there may be legitimate abuse, and I don't see why gay couples would abuse the system any more or less than straight couples.
 
The issue is not so much how many are gay, but how many are entering into same sex marriages. So from an impact to SS/pensions is it better to look at, in states where same-sex marriage is legal, the percentage of same sex marriages occurring as compared to different sex marriages.
Sure, who says you have to be gay to enter into a same sex marriage? Does a policeman or a social worker insist on watching the consummation of the marriage? A heterosexual couple can get married if they have zero interest in or perhaps not even the capacity to have sexual intercourse. Why to two men or two women?

Like much else in our society, this should prove endlessly fascinating.

Ha
 
I predict a boom in the wedding industry, to be followed in a few years by a smaller boom in divorce litigation. :LOL:

At least that's what has happened here.
 
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