Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-22-2008, 11:40 AM   #121
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,052
Yes, I disagree with FD. So what? I must agree with everything he types because you think I should? I've already posted the fund you selected (or 2b selected, whoever) and showed that over the long term, it did outperform the S&P. However, that's not good enough for you. I've gotten some of my info from my local newspaper, perhaps they're in cahoots with American funds.
As to who's posting what, you're right, I rarely read the names, I usually base my responses on each individual post, that way, unlike you I don't have preconceived opinions. Nonetheless, the thread was started by comparing a C share, just as I said.
__________________

__________________
Art G is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-22-2008, 11:43 AM   #122
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2B View Post
No one is forcing me to participate. The unfortunate choice of participating in high fee funds is better than not taking advantage of the tax deferral.

Why not give people the choice of low cost index funds? Maybe the high fee fund companies give "free" 401k plans to the employers or other kickbacks. I guess it doesn't matter since employers don't have a fudiciary responsibility.... or do they?

Yes, they have a fiduciary responsibility. However, it is limited to their not overcharging you for funds, (American funds have some of the lowest fees around), and making sure you have ample choices. I'm assuming your company is not in the employee investment business so their main concern is finding a provider who sends out statements regularly, can handle questions from employees, and generally isn't a pain to deal with. I would hope you'd rather have your company focusing on profits than adding additional funds (which may incur additional fees to the 401k btw).
And no, the employer is not getting a kickback, although some TPA's charge less than others.
__________________

__________________
Art G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 11:56 AM   #123
Recycles dryer sheets
Gardnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ENE MO - near STL
Posts: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2B View Post
That's true but the cost above NAV is equivalent to a load. The load is not that large but I've seen the ETF 0.5% above its index at the close. I have no way of knowing what's going on during the day.
Oh, I see. You're talking about the premium/discount from the NAV, and pointing out that they usually (always?) run at a premium. But that would be a wash if you get that premium at the sale too, no?

Of course who knows what that price will be when you eventually sell years down the road, but I think that over a long period of time that the lower ER would overcome that premium even if you didn't get it on the sale.

Interesting point to consider.
__________________
Gardnr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 12:04 PM   #124
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
And the two financial guys pitching the funds dont even agree. One says the funds beat the indexes, that anything else presented is wrong and full of lies, while not offering any alternative data, and the other says the funds dont beat the indexes, arent intended to, and there arent any comparable indexes.
I'm not "pitching them" to you, or anyone else for that matter....... I think we need an ETF thread..........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 12:07 PM   #125
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Okay, I'm getting the picture. Not only do the funds not beat the index or have a comparable index, but you dont want to sell them to anyone either?
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 12:14 PM   #126
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Okay, I'm getting the picture. Not only do the funds not beat the index or have a comparable index, but you dont want to sell them to anyone either?
So, you thought I was selling you American Funds? CFB, that may be your funniest post ever........you crack me up.......

We need an Oppenheimer thread, or a Putnam thread,or something.......
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 12:16 PM   #127
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
This from the guy who had "My american funds can beat up your vanguard funds" as his sig for a month or so?

Will you next be claiming to have never heard of american funds?
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 12:29 PM   #128
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,052
So, a couple of professional people come on here at no cost, but merely to offer sound advice, and then people like cfb want to run them off, because they have nothing better to do with their time. Go figure.
I'd think those who appreciate the efforts would tell cfb to chill out, or at the very least let a moderator know about the harrassment. I know that in every instance, no matter what the subject matter, I like getting free opinions from professionals. Just wish I could have this weekend with an electrician.
__________________
Art G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 12:34 PM   #129
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
This from the guy who had "My american funds can beat up your vanguard funds" as his sig for a month or so?

Will you next be claiming to have never heard of american funds?
What's an "American Fund"?
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 12:58 PM   #130
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Dick Cheney? Is that you?

Hey Art, the only good advice you've offered up is for people to put you on their ignore list.

As far as people lining up to tell me to chill out or moderators running to your assistance...well...good luck with that.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 01:03 PM   #131
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Dick Cheney? Is that you?
Leave me alone, I'm busy clinging to my "guns and religion"........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 02:02 PM   #132
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
73ss454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: LaLa Land
Posts: 4,378
Hey FD, what about your lipstick
__________________
73ss454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 02:24 PM   #133
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by 73ss454 View Post
Hey FD, what about your lipstick
My wife stole it, she said it's the wrong shade for my eyes.......
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 03:24 PM   #134
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art G View Post
So, a couple of professional people come on here at no cost, but merely to offer sound advice, and then people like cfb want to run them off, because they have nothing better to do with their time. Go figure.
I'd think those who appreciate the efforts would tell cfb to chill out, or at the very least let a moderator know about the harrassment. I know that in every instance, no matter what the subject matter, I like getting free opinions from professionals. Just wish I could have this weekend with an electrician.
Unfortunately, I haven't heard much in the way of professional advice. Everything has been sales hype. Requests for significant data has never received a complete/partial response. There is a basic human desire to think that some expert can do better than the market indexes but repeated, independent studies say it doesn't happen. I would love to change my mind when the facts change.

I hadn't had you among the elites on my ignore list but I think you've earned a spot.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane -- Marcus Aurelius
2B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 03:28 PM   #135
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardnr View Post
Oh, I see. You're talking about the premium/discount from the NAV, and pointing out that they usually (always?) run at a premium. But that would be a wash if you get that premium at the sale too, no?

Of course who knows what that price will be when you eventually sell years down the road, but I think that over a long period of time that the lower ER would overcome that premium even if you didn't get it on the sale.

Interesting point to consider.
I've seen them run at a premium and discout. You can't depend on being able to buy at a discount and sell at a premium. If you dollar cost average in and out you can probably achieve a near neutral premium/discount. You might be able to absorb a phantom load charge by holding many years but some of the ETFs have pretty nasty management costs. Don't equate ETFs with the 0.09% charged by SPY. Homework is necessary here like everything else.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane -- Marcus Aurelius
2B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 03:43 PM   #136
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,052
I guess I should join the list of saying I'm putting everyone on ignore also.
__________________
Art G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 04:06 PM   #137
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art G View Post
Here's the point, in an up market people claim, "sure they've beat the index lately, but what about long term?". So I post long term ACTUAL numbers that have beat the S&P index even going back to the 70's, but that's not good enough.
In fact, that is *not* good enough. The overall 5 or 10 or 30 year returns are just eye-candy to fool the rubes. One exceptional good or bad year will dominate the numbers.

The figures that are valid and useful are the CAGR (compound annual growth rate), the STDEV (standard deviation) and the MAX-DD (maximum drawdown). Including the Sharpe Ratio would be good, too.

Only with these statistics can you talk about "risk-adjusted return". You claim that the American funds have a better RAR than the various index funds, but provide no data to back this up.
__________________
rayvt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 04:24 PM   #138
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayvt View Post
In fact, that is *not* good enough. The overall 5 or 10 or 30 year returns are just eye-candy to foll the rubes. One exceptional good or bad year will dominate the numbers.

The figures that are valid and useful are the CAGR (compound annual growth rate), the STDEV (standard deviation) and the MAX-DD (maximum drawdown). Including the Sharpe Ratio would be good, too.

Only with these statistics can you talk about "risk-adjusted return". You claim that the American funds have a better RAR than the various index funds, but provide no data to back this up.
You're tougher than CFB.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane -- Marcus Aurelius
2B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 04:37 PM   #139
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2B View Post
You're tougher than CFB.
Not really. Just interested in seeing *real* data instead of furious hand-waving. There are lots of papers & articles readily available on the web that talk about and compare investment strategies---and they invariably include these stats. And they very rarely include 3/5/10/15 year charts, except perhaps as a passing aside.

The people who run Funds are not stupid. They know darned good and well about the statistics I mentioned. And I'm pretty sure that they know their own numbers.

The fact that they don't says to me that the actual numbers don't compare favorably with the simple index strategies.
__________________
rayvt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 05:52 PM   #140
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwk View Post
Haven't been on the board for sometime due to some significant life challenges. I would describe my risk/reward tolerance as moderate. Most of my retirement accounts are in my 401K and index funds. I'm 54 and was looking to retire in the next 3-5 years, but unless the market changes for the better, I'm going to change my target to 8 years.

My confidence in managing my finances has been bruised over the last 12 months. My total retirement portfolio has been on a steady decline since 3rd qtr 2007 and is down 12% over that period of time. I have some of my retirement funds with Smith Barney and met with my adviser recently.

My SB adviser and I discussed their TRAK/Wrap funds. We discussed the pros and cons. I'm considering moving 25% of my portfolio, the expense ratio is 1.5% total. My adviser and I have a similar attitude towards investing. He told me the TRAK accounts have been available for several years -- but he wanted to have some history with them before recommending them to clients.

Any comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!!
dwk
What is the yield of your portfolio and why do you even care about performance?

The Norwegian widow buys high sells low and takes her file cabinet of dividends to the bank. BTW - two drawers, one each in two file cabinets - haven't moved em all to Vanguard broker yet.

Being a hard core Boglehead - why don't you hold an asset mix that will get the job done for your retirement - without paying a lot for your muffler/er costs to someone else.

15% Norwegian widow stocks
85% Target Retirement 2015

age 65, 15th yr of ER - took me forty years of investing/reading books/listening to brokers/etc - I had a real high class(read expensive) education.

heh heh heh - and if you don't like widows and orphans stocks Psst - Wellesley. Hope the Pat's do ok sans Brady.

Per Bogle - you get what you don't pay for.

Hey - looks like I missed a fun thread being off for nine days to Nags Head.
__________________

__________________
unclemick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What's this National Service talk? DougViages Other topics 25 09-14-2008 01:22 PM
More Bubble Talk ScaredtoQuit FIRE and Money 37 05-14-2007 08:44 PM
Please talk me out of continuing to work! tangomonster Hi, I am... 31 07-11-2006 07:21 PM
Talk About Your Avatar TromboneAl Other topics 52 02-21-2006 03:57 PM
Talk like a pirate! moghopper Other topics 5 09-19-2005 09:24 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:16 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.