I need a pep talk

[Art G]

Yes, I disagree with FD. So what? I must agree with everything he types because you think I should? I've already posted the fund you selected (or 2b selected, whoever) and showed that over the long term, it did outperform the S&P. However, that's not good enough for you. I've gotten some of my info from my local newspaper, perhaps they're in cahoots with American funds.
As to who's posting what, you're right, I rarely read the names, I usually base my responses on each individual post, that way, unlike you I don't have preconceived opinions. Nonetheless, the thread was started by comparing a C share, just as I said.

[Art G]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2B No one is forcing me to participate. The unfortunate choice of participating in high fee funds is better than not taking advantage of the tax deferral. Why not give people the choice of low cost index funds? Maybe the high fee fund companies give "free" 401k plans to the employers or other kickbacks. I guess it doesn't matter since employers don't have a fudiciary responsibility.... or do they?

Yes, they have a fiduciary responsibility. However, it is limited to their not overcharging you for funds, (American funds have some of the lowest fees around), and making sure you have ample choices. I'm assuming your company is not in the employee investment business so their main concern is finding a provider who sends out statements regularly, can handle questions from employees, and generally isn't a pain to deal with. I would hope you'd rather have your company focusing on profits than adding additional funds (which may incur additional fees to the 401k btw).
And no, the employer is not getting a kickback, although some TPA's charge less than others.

[Gardnr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2B That's true but the cost above NAV is equivalent to a load. The load is not that large but I've seen the ETF 0.5% above its index at the close. I have no way of knowing what's going on during the day.

Oh, I see. You're talking about the premium/discount from the NAV, and pointing out that they usually (always?) run at a premium. But that would be a wash if you get that premium at the sale too, no?

Of course who knows what that price will be when you eventually sell years down the road, but I think that over a long period of time that the lower ER would overcome that premium even if you didn't get it on the sale.

Interesting point to consider.

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny And the two financial guys pitching the funds dont even agree. One says the funds beat the indexes, that anything else presented is wrong and full of lies, while not offering any alternative data, and the other says the funds dont beat the indexes, arent intended to, and there arent any comparable indexes.

I'm not "pitching them" to you, or anyone else for that matter....... I think we need an ETF thread..........

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Okay, I'm getting the picture. Not only do the funds not beat the index or have a comparable index, but you dont want to sell them to anyone either?

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny Okay, I'm getting the picture. Not only do the funds not beat the index or have a comparable index, but you dont want to sell them to anyone either?

So, you thought I was selling you American Funds? CFB, that may be your funniest post ever........you crack me up.......

We need an Oppenheimer thread, or a Putnam thread,or something.......

[cute fuzzy bunny]

This from the guy who had "My american funds can beat up your vanguard funds" as his sig for a month or so?

Will you next be claiming to have never heard of american funds?

[Art G]

So, a couple of professional people come on here at no cost, but merely to offer sound advice, and then people like cfb want to run them off, because they have nothing better to do with their time. Go figure.
I'd think those who appreciate the efforts would tell cfb to chill out, or at the very least let a moderator know about the harrassment. I know that in every instance, no matter what the subject matter, I like getting free opinions from professionals. Just wish I could have this weekend with an electrician.

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny This from the guy who had "My american funds can beat up your vanguard funds" as his sig for a month or so? Will you next be claiming to have never heard of american funds?

What's an "American Fund"?

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Dick Cheney? Is that you?

Hey Art, the only good advice you've offered up is for people to put you on their ignore list.

As far as people lining up to tell me to chill out or moderators running to your assistance...well...good luck with that.

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny Dick Cheney? Is that you?

Leave me alone, I'm busy clinging to my "guns and religion"........

[73ss454]

Hey FD, what about your lipstick

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 73ss454 Hey FD, what about your lipstick

My wife stole it, she said it's the wrong shade for my eyes.......

[2B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art G So, a couple of professional people come on here at no cost, but merely to offer sound advice, and then people like cfb want to run them off, because they have nothing better to do with their time. Go figure. I'd think those who appreciate the efforts would tell cfb to chill out, or at the very least let a moderator know about the harrassment. I know that in every instance, no matter what the subject matter, I like getting free opinions from professionals. Just wish I could have this weekend with an electrician.

Unfortunately, I haven't heard much in the way of professional advice. Everything has been sales hype. Requests for significant data has never received a complete/partial response. There is a basic human desire to think that some expert can do better than the market indexes but repeated, independent studies say it doesn't happen. I would love to change my mind when the facts change.

I hadn't had you among the elites on my ignore list but I think you've earned a spot.

[2B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardnr Oh, I see. You're talking about the premium/discount from the NAV, and pointing out that they usually (always?) run at a premium. But that would be a wash if you get that premium at the sale too, no? Of course who knows what that price will be when you eventually sell years down the road, but I think that over a long period of time that the lower ER would overcome that premium even if you didn't get it on the sale. Interesting point to consider.

I've seen them run at a premium and discout. You can't depend on being able to buy at a discount and sell at a premium. If you dollar cost average in and out you can probably achieve a near neutral premium/discount. You might be able to absorb a phantom load charge by holding many years but some of the ETFs have pretty nasty management costs. Don't equate ETFs with the 0.09% charged by SPY. Homework is necessary here like everything else.

[Art G]

I guess I should join the list of saying I'm putting everyone on ignore also.

[rayvt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art G Here's the point, in an up market people claim, "sure they've beat the index lately, but what about long term?". So I post long term ACTUAL numbers that have beat the S&P index even going back to the 70's, but that's not good enough.

In fact, that is *not* good enough. The overall 5 or 10 or 30 year returns are just eye-candy to fool the rubes. One exceptional good or bad year will dominate the numbers.

The figures that are valid and useful are the CAGR (compound annual growth rate), the STDEV (standard deviation) and the MAX-DD (maximum drawdown). Including the Sharpe Ratio would be good, too.

Only with these statistics can you talk about "risk-adjusted return". You claim that the American funds have a better RAR than the various index funds, but provide no data to back this up.

[2B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayvt In fact, that is *not* good enough. The overall 5 or 10 or 30 year returns are just eye-candy to foll the rubes. One exceptional good or bad year will dominate the numbers. The figures that are valid and useful are the CAGR (compound annual growth rate), the STDEV (standard deviation) and the MAX-DD (maximum drawdown). Including the Sharpe Ratio would be good, too. Only with these statistics can you talk about "risk-adjusted return". You claim that the American funds have a better RAR than the various index funds, but provide no data to back this up.

You're tougher than CFB.

[rayvt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2B You're tougher than CFB.

Not really. Just interested in seeing *real* data instead of furious hand-waving. There are lots of papers & articles readily available on the web that talk about and compare investment strategies---and they invariably include these stats. And they very rarely include 3/5/10/15 year charts, except perhaps as a passing aside.

The people who run Funds are not stupid. They know darned good and well about the statistics I mentioned. And I'm pretty sure that they know their own numbers.

The fact that they don't says to me that the actual numbers don't compare favorably with the simple index strategies.

[unclemick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwk Haven't been on the board for sometime due to some significant life challenges. I would describe my risk/reward tolerance as moderate. Most of my retirement accounts are in my 401K and index funds. I'm 54 and was looking to retire in the next 3-5 years, but unless the market changes for the better, I'm going to change my target to 8 years. My confidence in managing my finances has been bruised over the last 12 months. My total retirement portfolio has been on a steady decline since 3rd qtr 2007 and is down 12% over that period of time. I have some of my retirement funds with Smith Barney and met with my adviser recently. My SB adviser and I discussed their TRAK/Wrap funds. We discussed the pros and cons. I'm considering moving 25% of my portfolio, the expense ratio is 1.5% total. My adviser and I have a similar attitude towards investing. He told me the TRAK accounts have been available for several years -- but he wanted to have some history with them before recommending them to clients. Any comments greatly appreciated. Thanks!!! dwk

What is the yield of your portfolio and why do you even care about performance?

The Norwegian widow buys high sells low and takes her file cabinet of dividends to the bank. BTW - two drawers, one each in two file cabinets - haven't moved em all to Vanguard broker yet.

Being a hard core Boglehead - why don't you hold an asset mix that will get the job done for your retirement - without paying a lot for your muffler/er costs to someone else.

15% Norwegian widow stocks
85% Target Retirement 2015

age 65, 15th yr of ER - took me forty years of investing/reading books/listening to brokers/etc - I had a real high class(read expensive) education.

heh heh heh - and if you don't like widows and orphans stocks Psst - Wellesley. Hope the Pat's do ok sans Brady.

Per Bogle - you get what you don't pay for.

Hey - looks like I missed a fun thread being off for nine days to Nags Head.