Ignorance is Scary

[2017ish]

...

Back in the old days, they used to say timing chains were better, but that was a different era where belts usually needed replacing every 20-30,000 miles, while a chain was good for the "life of the car". That was also an era where "life of the car" usually meant it was junked by around 100,000 miles.

...

My purely anecdotal response to this: our first new car purchase was a toyota minivan with timing chain in '92. "Life of the car" was 360,000 miles and chain never posed a problem. (Quick/cursory look around the web is that this is not an anomaly for well-serviced toyota, but....)

Now, if just one more poster has a similar anecdote, we'll have data!

P.S.--your post will lead me to some discussions with a couple of mechanics I know, so thanks!

 

[MRG]

.....snip.....

I just have a problem believing that an engine could go 100,000 miles without needed an oil change. Unless they start leaking it to the point where you're adding oil...which technically, isn't "changing" it I guess.

I can't say for sure on the 100k miles. I have used old equipment, 1938 Oliver crawler loader that hadn't had the oil changed in a couple of decades, while being actively used. My DB was strongly of the opinion that it would start blowing by the rings if it were changed. We'd change the filter and add as needed. Don't know if DB actually had an issue prior or it was a tale that he believed.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I have a colleague who took her monster luxury SUV to the dealer to get the clock reset when we switched to daylight savings time.

Sounds like a friend of mine that used to work for a Chevy dealership. They had a client that everytime he came in for whatever service, asked that they line up all the bowties on his hubcaps. They could never get the guy to understand why they wouldn't stay "lined up". I tend to think that guy won't be frequenting the ER forums.

 

[Andre1969]

Yeah, I'd still expect a timing chain to go a good, long time. But with people keeping cars longer and longer than they did in the past, in general I think timing chain failures do come up more often than in the old days. That, plus the cars being more complex than in days gone by. Back in the old days of predominantly overhead valve engines, the chain only had to reach the 6 or 8 inches or whatever to get from the crankshaft to the camshaft. But nowadays, most engines are overhead, or even dual overhead cam, and the chains have to reach a lot further.

I think one big achilles heel these days actually isn't the timing chain itself, but the guides that help keep it taut and in place. Often they're plastic, and wear down after awhile. I think some companies use metal guides. Or maybe higher-grade plastic?

I think the longest anyone in my family has had a timing chain car go was about 330,000 miles. That was a 1999 Altima that my Mom and stepdad bought brand new. They did a lot of highway driving. I had a '68 Dart that had 338,000 miles on it when I got rid of it, and a '79 Newport that had about 250,000...both of them V-8 engines. However, I can't vouch for their entire lives, as they were both old cars by the time I got them. I know the Dart's engine had been rebuilt at 242,000 miles, and I bought it at 253,000. The Newport had about 230,000 on it when I rescued it from the junkyard. In retrospect, I should have left it there, but I did like that car.

 

[REWahoo]

I had a friend who retired from the military and attempted to become a car salesman. My jaw almost hit the floor when he told me, "I didn't realize you didn't have to pay sticker price for a car...." He was serious.

 

[UnrealizedPotential]

Okay, now I got started, and I can't stop.

Exactly ten years ago, my sister got a new teaching job that paid twice as much as her old one. She asked me for help in saving money because she had zero savings. We came up with a good plan that involved automatic investments in a Vanguard target fund. She was determined to not spend all of the additional new money that she'd be taking in.

We implemented the plan and set up the automatic investments.

After one month she changed her mind. In the last ten years she spent all the money she earned and saved nothing.

Now she's lost her job and has no savings and no job prospects, and not much social security (she never worked much). If she'd followed the plan, she'd at least have $80,000 at this point.

She's asked me for help in setting up a web site for giving Theatre Workshops. I'm helping her, but I know that if she ran the numbers, they would show that she would probably earn less than $1 an hour with that enterprise.

She's 69.

This kind of reminds me of my brother. He asked for my investment advice, so I gave it to him. I picked out a nice , long term mutual fund for him. He decided that it wasn't aggressive enough for him. He put all his 401k money into a more aggressive growth fund. Then, after he did this he asks for my advice again. Really? I told him just to do what he thinks is best. I mean he did not listen to me the first time, so obviously he will have to learn some things on his own. I will give my brother credit for saving for his future. He did not get started until he was 40. He is now 46.

 

[Mulligan]

My purely anecdotal response to this: our first new car purchase was a toyota minivan with timing chain in '92. "Life of the car" was 360,000 miles and chain never posed a problem. (Quick/cursory look around the web is that this is not an anomaly for well-serviced toyota, but....)



Now, if just one more poster has a similar anecdote, we'll have data!



P.S.--your post will lead me to some discussions with a couple of mechanics I know, so thanks!

Your data is now confirmed. I recently sold my SUV of 200,000 miles without incident of a timing chain issue. Or really an incident of anything. Outside of constant oil changes and a few brake pads installed I did nothing. The amount of preventive maintenance I should have done but didn't saved me enough money to get me another vehicle.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Andre1969]

I can't say for sure on the 100k miles. I have used old equipment, 1938 Oliver crawler loader that hadn't had the oil changed in a couple of decades, while being actively used. My DB was strongly of the opinion that it would start blowing by the rings if it were changed. We'd change the filter and add as needed. Don't know if DB actually had an issue prior or it was a tale that he believed.

I don't know if it's an old wive's tale or not, but I've hear that with automatic transmissions, a rule of thumb was to change the fluid every 1 year/12000 miles, or don't change it at all. I think the reasoning was that if you let the intervals go too long, and then tried to change it, you'd end up stirring up all sorts of loose particles that had settled, and hasten the transmission's demise.

Dunno how much truth there is to that, though. At some point in the 1970's, they started stretching out the service intervals on transmissions, but I don't know what, exactly, they did to them to go those extra distances. For instance, by 1978, the Chevy Nova, according to the sales brochure, had a 60,000 mile service interval for the transmission fluid. For 1979 it was 100,000 miles! The Chevy Malibu started stretching that interval out to 100k miles starting in 1978, but it used a different transmission than the Nova, one that was more modern, lightweight, and in theory just as durable. In theory, that is... Sometimes I wonder if those 100K mile intervals are one reason they tended to fail?!

On my 2000 Dodge Intrepid, the service interval was 100,000 miles for "light duty", and 50,000 for "severe service"...the reality was "light duty" was fantasy land while "severe service" really meant most normal driving situations. Just to play it safe, I had that sucker done roughly every 30,000 miles, mainly because that transmission wasn't known for durability.

 

[enginerd]

The ignorance of my megacorp:

They insist we change the oil on company vehicles every 3000 miles...company policy they say. We all complain (directly to the fleet manager) that we should follow the manufacturer's recommendations. My current vehicle says to follow the on-board computer (which would be about every 8500 miles at my current driving habits) So instead I waste an hour about every month getting my oil changed...what a waste of time and money.

 

[MooreBonds]

Outside of constant oil changes and a few brake pads installed I did nothing. The amount of preventive maintenance I should have done but didn't saved me enough money to get me another vehicle.

That's what I can't stand about the whole "preventive maintenance" schedule. By the time you do all that, you could pretty much pay for any and all possible things to go wrong, and then some.

Like a former co-worker who would pay for premium synthetic oil on his oil changes for his truck. Would run about $75/oil change. He did it to "make his truck last longer". At 3-4 oil changes per year, he could have paid for a rebuilt engine in the rare event it died by paying for regular oil changes. But logic like that was beyond his comprehension.

 

[Chuckanut]

I had a 1979 Honda Accord with the CVCC engine. One of the last passenger cards sold in the USA that would run on leaded regular. I also had a 1972 Toyota Corona.

The Honda had a small oil leak in the the third valve of the pre-combustion chamber. And both had a small leak somewhere down below. In reality both got a de-facto oil change every 6000 miles whether I did one or not.

I suspect many of these cars that went 80,000+ miles with no oil change probably got one at least every 10,000 miles or so by their 3rd or 4th year of operation just by virtue of the leaks.. Now the filter is another issue, of course.

Interestingly, my last two autos have owned never leaked anything. Cars really are getting better, IMHO.

 

[Mulligan]

That's what I can't stand about the whole "preventive maintenance" schedule. By the time you do all that, you could pretty much pay for any and all possible things to go wrong, and then some.

Like a former co-worker who would pay for premium synthetic oil on his oil changes for his truck. Would run about $75/oil change. He did it to "make his truck last longer". At 3-4 oil changes per year, he could have paid for a rebuilt engine in the rare event it died by paying for regular oil changes. But logic like that was beyond his comprehension.

The 3000 mile oil change has to be one of the best marketing ads of all time. It stuck like glue in peoples minds and is still being used. As the last place anyone would ever look to find the truth is reading the owners manual.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Chuckanut]

The 3000 mile oil change has to be one of the best marketing ads of all time. It stuck like glue in peoples minds and is still being used. As the last place anyone would ever look to find the truth is reading the owners manual.

+1

 

[NW-Bound]

The vehicles I owned earlier in life used to burn quite a bit of oil, something like a quart/1000 miles. They were bought used and a bit old.

Then, when I started to make more money, I bought new cars or used but only 2-3 year old. These burned less than 1 quart between 6,000-mile oil change.

I often wonder if that is because new cars are built better or my earlier cars were abused.

 

[enginerd]

The 3000 mile oil change has to be one of the best marketing ads of all time.

A quote from my ex-girlfriend in college:
"We can't take my car. It's been 2990 miles since the oil change. We won't have enough oil to make it back home and then to Jiffy Lube." She thought her engine would be ruined if she went 1 mile over 3000.

 

[Andre1969]

I have to admit, I was raised on 3000 mile oil changes, and it took awhile to break that habit. Actually, it took me awhile to even accept 3000 mile intervals, because my Granddad had raised me on 2000! But that's because he grew up on farms where it was dusty, and in the old days, most of the roads around here were dirt and gravel. Also lots of dust and dirt from the neighboring farms. And, he spent most of his working life was spent about a mile from home. Grandmom spent a good deal of her life working close to home as well, too. So, in those days, 2000 miles represented a lot more wear, I guess!

Oil quality has also come a long way since the old days, too. Granddad's answer was to put straight 30W oil in everything, as he didn't trust those newfangled multi-grade oils. And to be fair, they weren't so hot when they first came out. But, time marches on, and things improve. I guess if you put straight 30W in a modern engine, especially these ones that call for 0W30 and the like, you'd probably ruin the engine in short order.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

A quote from my ex-girlfriend in college:
"We can't take my car. It's been 2990 miles since the oil change. We won't have enough oil to make it back home and then to Jiffy Lube." She thought her engine would be ruined if she went 1 mile over 3000.

And this is why she is your ex-gf (and not your wife today)?

 

[Live Free]

I frequently find that people don't add up the monthly payments to what the total cost of an item would be. A recent example was a friend who decided to get a smartphone for her daughter. It was only $129/month she said if she signed up for 2 years. When I pointed out that was over $3K she would have to pay, not including taxes and those mystery fees on the phone bill, she seemed taken aback. It really is tied to monthly cash flow in many people's minds.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

I have to admit, I was raised on 3000 mile oil changes, and it took awhile to break that habit. Actually, it took me awhile to even accept 3000 mile intervals, because my Granddad had raised me on 2000! But that's because he grew up on farms where it was dusty, and in the old days, most of the roads around here were dirt and gravel. Also lots of dust and dirt from the neighboring farms. And, he spent most of his working life was spent about a mile from home. Grandmom spent a good deal of her life working close to home as well, too. So, in those days, 2000 miles represented a lot more wear, I guess!

Oil quality has also come a long way since the old days, too. Granddad's answer was to put straight 30W oil in everything, as he didn't trust those newfangled multi-grade oils. And to be fair, they weren't so hot when they first came out. But, time marches on, and things improve. I guess if you put straight 30W in a modern engine, especially these ones that call for 0W30 and the like, you'd probably ruin the engine in short order.

The greatest thing to come along to extend engine longevity (and oil change intervals) is computer-metered fuel injection. Old carbureted engines experienced lots of oil contamination, along with cylinder wall and ring wear, due to overfueling.

 

[timo2]

It really is tied to monthly cash flow in many people's minds.

If everyone was an astute consumer, companies would definitely have a smaller cash flow. Even LBYM'ers can waste money. But as everyone here knows, the issue is to divert some of that cash flow to pay yourself. Which results in having less money in your cash flow for consumer items, so when we do not-smart things with our consumer dollars, it is after we have paid ourselves.

 

[2B]

I just have a problem believing that an engine could go 100,000 miles without needed an oil change. Unless they start leaking it to the point where you're adding oil...which technically, isn't "changing" it I guess.

When I was with a research dept of a large oil company, I saw a report where no difference in maintenance history was recorded between two groups of NY taxi cabs. One group changed their oil and filter at the recommended intervals. The second group only changed their filter and added oil as necessary to maintain the proper level.

This study used 1970 vehicles. I never tried it.

 

[athena53]

I frequently find that people don't add up the monthly payments to what the total cost of an item would be. A recent example was a friend who decided to get a smartphone for her daughter. It was only $129/month she said if she signed up for 2 years. When I pointed out that was over $3K she would have to pay, not including taxes and those mystery fees on the phone bill, she seemed taken aback. It really is tied to monthly cash flow in many people's minds.

I agree- I'm paranoid as heck about monthly payments for anything because they add up. I bought my iPhone outright and it was interesting that even the salesman tried to talk me out of it. I also noticed that the fine print in Sprint's "Cut Your Monthly Bill in Half" promotion for new customers required that you hand over your current phone and sign a 2-year contract. I'm paying $51/month for the lowest data plan and, through judicious use of W-Fi, stay well under the max.

They REALLY want to get people on the hook with a contract so they can continue to extend it with "free" phone upgrades.

 

[enginerd]

And this is why she is your ex-gf (and not your wife today)?

That is exactly why.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

I agree- I'm paranoid as heck about monthly payments for anything because they add up. I bought my iPhone outright and it was interesting that even the salesman tried to talk me out of it. I also noticed that the fine print in Sprint's "Cut Your Monthly Bill in Half" promotion for new customers required that you hand over your current phone and sign a 2-year contract. I'm paying $51/month for the lowest data plan and, through judicious use of W-Fi, stay well under the max.

They REALLY want to get people on the hook with a contract so they can continue to extend it with "free" phone upgrades.

The funny thing with Sprint is that you never actually own the phone. You're leasing it like a car, with a buyout at the end (or rollover into the latest model).

Like many LBYM'rs, I actually prefer to use 1-generation old technology. True, it's not as "cool" or advanced as the latest and greatest, but it's lower cost and still does 95% of the latest model. Shopping for a smart phone using one of the used phone resellers is a great way to save money.

 

[2B]

DW and I broke down and got the WalMart plan that runs about $78/mo with all the extra taxes and fees. We bought two $150 LG phones. I'm trying to figure out what my kids get out of the late model Apple phones that I don't get with the LG phones. My web access says its 4G and it seems just as fast as theirs. We get good coverage almost everywhere and when we don't they frequently also have trouble. Sometimes we get better service than they do.